Dear team,
A Friend has bought a BRAND NEW Tractor. He agreed the deal and then paid a 3k deposit in the form of a cheque on the 5th December. On the 8th of December the dealers Wife went to the Post Office to tax the thing in the new owners name. She wasn’t in possession of a valid Insurance certificate so in her or her Husband’s infinite wisdom they taxed it in the dealers name. They the dealer, realising their mistake ‘phoned DVLA seemingly on my Friends behalf requesting that they be wiped from the logbook. Subsequent correspondence with the DVLA via my friend and myself reveals this won’t be happening. The dealer has stated verbally that he cuffed up, but refuses to recompense said friend. I have been asked to compose a letter to both the dealer and the manufacturing company. My stance would be that they have knowingly devalued the machine and there are obvious consequences when he comes to sell in three years time. A private buyer would perhaps not consider it too much of a problem, but a dealer (which is where it is likely to go) would.
In an ideal world he wants the tractor taken back and a full refund given. Second choice would be financial compensation. Friend wants 10k. I told him he was mad and he had no chance. I would have thought that 3-5k would be good but still don’t fancy the odds. Trading standards have, I believe, stated that Friend has little or no chance of anything.
What does the panel think we should do and if it ends up in the Small Claims Court what is the likely outcome.
Regards........Martin.
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Can't see how it would devalue a 3 year old tractor by 10k but I don't buy tractors.
What scares people off is when a vehicle is on its 4th or 5th owner in as many months. Provided your friend has a full documented history of the vehicle including this mix-up (which is what it is when looking in from the outside) then it can be explained and I can't really see how it would have a negative effect on a three year old piece of farm machinery.
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MD, does yr friend want a tractor or does he want endless bureaucratic and legal hassles and the settled hatred of the tractor dealer (and perhaps all his contacts in the trade)? If he wants a tractor he should listen to gmac.
He sounds just a bit barmy to me.
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I've certainly heard of vehicles being de-registered by dealers.
Perhaps the problem here is that it wasn't unwound immediately and compounded by its being transferred to the second "owner" before there was an attempt to rectify the mistake.
If he has really suffered loss and can show it, and the dealer contracted to sell him a new tractor, then he must have a claim.
The question is whether the loss is material enough to justify the hassle. Perhaps a free service or two would be enough and could be agreed on without recourse to lawyers.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 18:00
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>> I've certainly heard of vehicles being de-registered by dealers.
>>
What do you mean by this ?
A dealer can de-register a vehicle for Marketing purposes to prevent contacting someone who has traded in a vehicle with a reminder for the next service as an example, the vehicle must however be registered to someone otherwise there'd be a HUGE black market for de-registered vehicles.
If a vehicle sits on a dealers forecourt for some time, that dealer has to add themselves to the logbook. That's what happened to my car and why there were three previous owners on a two year old car. It didn't bother me as it all added up.
When you trade a car in, you fill in your section as the seller to say you've given the car to dealer x. That dealer can hold the V5C for the given time but after a period of time the vehicle must be re-registered.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 18:16
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>> >> I've certainly heard of vehicles being de-registered by dealers.
>> >>
>> What do you mean by this ?
I mean that an error in registering a vehicle, e.g. when the wrong one has been registered in error, has been put right - when I say heard of, I mean exactly that - I haven't done it.
The expression "de-register" was used, but I wouldn't know if it's an official one.
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>> >> I've certainly heard of vehicles being de-registered by dealers.
>> >>
>> What do you mean by this ?
In the last post in this thread, iffy/ifithelps refers to "de- registering".
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=66516
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>
>> If he has really suffered loss and can show it, and the dealer contracted to
>> sell him a new tractor, then he must have a claim.
Yes, he'll have to show some "loss", "damages" or "harm" to get any money out of them in court.
Sounds like he is making a mountain of of a molehill.
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The only thing I can think Martin's mate is worried about is if he thinks he's being sold a 2011 tractor at 2012 prices when there has been some major upgrade which he is missing out on.
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He taxed it in his own name (dealer) AFTER the deposit was paid, i.e. intention to purchase. Is it me or are you lot missing something?
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>> He taxed it in his own name (dealer) AFTER the deposit was paid, i.e. intention
>> to purchase. Is it me or are you lot missing something?
Well if you dont like the advice there is no need to take it out on us.
Sort the bleedin problem out yourself.
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At least you are consistent Mr. Nought. A suitable number.
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You get what you pay for.
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With something like a tractor, not as i've ever bought one, i would expect there to be more common sense applied at some future sale point than with cars and the great unwashed erratic public.
So dealer has mistakenly regd tractor in his name, presumably friend will have correct registration in his name a few days later.
Sensible solution would be a dated letter from dealer on headed paper duly signed by both parties (solicitor too maybe if thought necessary for adding some gravitas) detailing the error, and this to be kept with tractor paperwork as a permanent record of cock up, its not as if the tractor could have run up 20 thousand hours in 2 weeks.
Morally i would expect the dealer to make some sort of goodwill offer for the inconvenience, £10k is frankly la-la land, a couple of services or an extended warranty (keep tractor longer) and a re-establishment of good relations would be best for all here.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 20:49
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>> He taxed it in his own name (dealer) AFTER the deposit was paid, i.e. intention
>> to purchase. Is it me or are you lot missing something?
>>
It's only an intention to purchase, he has not actually purchased the vehicle at that point. Your mate could turn up on Monday and say he's changed his mind and wants his deposit back.
Until they have actually exchanged then it is the dealers tractor.
The last car I bought in the UK, the dealer did not put the road tax on it until I had handed over the cash to complete the transaction.
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 20:53
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If tractor insurance has the same condition attached as some comprehensive car policies there is the danger that in the event of a writeoff he could be financially disadvantaged.
Quote from Drive the Deal suggests
The financial disadvantages to you in buying a pre-registered car are:
(a) Your car will likely be worth a fraction less money when you come to sell it because it has two owners on the logbook (known as the V5).
(b) Most car insurance policies contain a clause which provides a ‘new for old’ replacement if their car is written off in an accident during the first 12 months of ownership. This clause is usually only available to the first registered keeper of a car. A car which is first registered in a company’s name and later re-registered would not qualify for this ‘new for old’ clause. A payout at market value may be worth several thousand pounds less than it would cost to replace the car for another new one.
(c) Up to 75% of insurance quotes are not available to you on the insurance comparison websites, if your car is not registered to you, which may mean you will have to pay more for your insurance.
some other problems about preregistered cars.
If your car is not registered to you at the time you collect it, you will be committing a criminal offence and chances are that the person selling it to you has also committed a criminal offence by not giving you proper information. We explain below exactly why this is.
It is a criminal offence to keep and drive a car which is not registered to you at your address as the keeper. If you drive around in a car that has been registered to a company, or another third party, that is not otherwise related to the transaction then you could be prosecuted, fined and get a criminal record. This is because it is an offence under Section 43C of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
OK sowing FUD to get a sale, but several valid points!
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>> It is a criminal offence to keep and drive a car which is not registered
>> to you at your address as the keeper.
>>
Que?
If someone lends you a car and you make sure that it is taxed and insured and MOTed if appropriate and you keep said car at your house, you are committing a criminal offence?
Or have I missed the point?
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>> If your car is not registered to you at the time you collect it, you
>> will be committing a criminal offence and chances are that the person selling it to
>> you has also committed a criminal offence by not giving you proper information.
>>
>>
Eh?
So what happens when you buy a car privately? It will be registered in the name of the previous owner till you send the log book off and get your details put on. Buy one on Easter Thursday and it will be nearly a week before you can even start the process.
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Eh?
My view exactly! I was only posting the FUD promulgated by a 'respectable' outfit!
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Non-returnable deposit AND there is no defence in English law against a dishonoured cheque.
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>> He taxed it in his own name (dealer) AFTER the deposit was paid, i.e. intention
>> to purchase. Is it me or are you lot missing something?
It's not what he did that's at issue, it's the consequence. What %age of the price paid is £10K?
What is the likely real effect 3 or more years down the line on the trade value of the tractor.?
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>> if he thinks he's being sold a 2011 tractor at 2012 prices when there has been some major upgrade which he is missing out on.
Granted that dealers can be a bit tight-lipped about such details, they should should still be checkable through engine and chassis numbers. But one assumes MD's friend wanted that tractor anyway since he paid a deposit. Now he's holding up the deal with what seems to me - but I admit I know nothing specialized in this area - slightly crazed hustling for an advantage. The free services solution sounds about right, if there's anything to compensate.
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Tractor purchases are nothing like a car. They are solely to do a job of work and the obsessive detail we all stress over with cars, like a dealer showing in the log book for the first week, are of no account.
There is nothing to be compensated for really so any small goodwill gesture would be sufficient. Any guy who started off claiming £10,000 is frankly on another planet.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 23 Feb 13 at 21:24
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He is a farmer, they always plead poverty, screw everyone for their last penny, and have a Range Rover in the shed.
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>> He is a farmer, they always plead poverty, screw everyone for their last penny, and
>> have a Range Rover in the shed.
>>
Unless the Duke of Northumberland is your landlord:
tinyurl.com/ccev4a8
tinyurl.com/cxw5xkm
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A similar thing almost happened to me just last week. Briefly we have just purchased an 8 month old demo Alfa Giulietta from Alfa dealer. The dealer in question is in another town so all negotiations were done on the phone by myself. On agreeing the sale and paying the deposit the salesman had the logbook sent away to the DVLA (or thought admin had sent it) in my name (a little early I thought!), whereas the car is for the girlfriend and the car should have been in her name.
I was concerned that to change the V5 back into her name would add another owner to the car. I phoned the DVLA and told them of the problem. They said no worries, when the V5 arrives, fill in the correction section and with a covering letter from the dealer explaining the mistake we will correct the V5 WITHOUT adding another owner.
As it happened, the admin at the garage hadnt sent it anyway, so all was well.
With this experience, I cant understand why there is an issue, unless someone isnt telling the truth somewhere?
PS the car is great!
Last edited by: PR on Sun 24 Feb 13 at 21:16
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What did you get PR ?
The 170 diesel was fantastic(o) to drive, I remember driving back into England through Cornhill and giving it the beans and realising there was a van at the top of the hill with blacked out windows, I had a couple of uncomfortable weeks after that.
Beautiful car, loved it in Sport mode but the creaks were there at 3k miles which got on my nerves. I'm already saving for a 4C after my GTV test drive before I bought a FIAT Coupe 20v turbo, unless FIAT give us a new Coupe which blows the equivalent Alfa away as usual.
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 24 Feb 13 at 21:24
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Gmac, yes its the 170 diesel veloce, with 18" alloys, 330mm brembos, privacy glass, in Alfa red. I love it. It was replacing the trusty Bravo which had reached 150,000 miles!
It joins my GTA in the family fleet.
A friend has ordered a 4C and he should get it later this year, I cant wait to see it
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Is that a proper 156 GTA or the GM 159 GTA ?
The proper Alfa GTA engine is a belter, SAAB (including my 900 V6) suffered the GM 70k mile valve stem seal shelf life.
I love Italian cars, proper cars but I am not beyond their faults unlike the Japanese love in folks.
Post some 4C photos and make us all GREEN with envy...how metal can really be shaped.
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 24 Feb 13 at 21:31
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Its the proper 156 Busso GTA with 130,000 on it now. The 159 3.2 wasnt called a GTA....
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You won't be parting with that any time soon then...
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Nope, its been brilliant :)
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I looked at a FIAT Coupe this week, 435bhp from a 2.0 five cylinder. They wanted almost 30k for it...Still tempting though, love that Pininfarina shape.
About the only shape Bangle got right in Europe...
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 24 Feb 13 at 21:39
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>> Trading standards have, I believe, stated that Friend has little or no chance of anything.
vs 10k cash
He be having a giraffe.
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Tractor story, longish.
One of my American colleagues grew up on a farm run by his grandfather in the American Midwest. His grandfather had a Russian tractor. He was very much someone who thought the opinions of others were pretty much worthless and aquired his first Russian tractor in the 1950s at the height of the McCarthy communist "witch hunts"(!) His reasoning was it was a perfectly good tractor at a very silly price.
Anyhow, the local John Deere rep took it rather personally that someone on his patch had a Russian tractor and often called to persuade the old man that he ought to have an American tractor (you can add flags and martial music at this point if you like).
The old boy would point out that the Russian tractor "never broke down". Actually it did, but when this happened a truck would turn up quickly to take it away for repair and leave a brand new tractor in its place as a loan while his was being fixed. Nobody ever asked for the "loan" tractor back, nor was there ever any repair bill. The process of getting it serviced was similar, with the slight difference that the original tractor returned and a very small bill was presented. The Soviets were delighted to have one of their tractors working away in the heart of the US of A and were happy to move heaven and earth to make it stay that way.
Mr John Deere could not compete with this and would go away with his tail between his legs.
Eventually, in the late '70s, the old man retired and his son (my colleague's father) took over the farm. The John Deere rep turned up with indecent haste to sell him a new tractor.
On arrival he found a brand spanking new, latest model Russian tractor already sitting there. The Soviet tractor collective rep had beaten him to it.
There's nothing wrong with Cold War propaganda when it gives you free tractors for life...
Last edited by: TeeCee on Mon 25 Feb 13 at 09:11
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Pre-registration woes - ....
