For the second year running, the n/s rear has a slow puncture - I got one mended this time last year after I took them off, and now I have another wheel in the boot to get fixed.
I actually discovered it on 17th October when I checked the pressures before setting off for my daughter's wedding in Jockland. It was less than 10psi down and I hadn't touched it for a month, so I figured it was very slow and left it on. It was fine, I only added 3 psi to come home a week later.
Then a couple of weeks ago it started going down a lot faster. Turns out to have two punctures now.
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Brother in law rang me the other morning.He doesn't live far from me, nail in his rear tyre.He managed to get the tyre off and we took the tyre in for repair.
No spare tyre for his car.I wouldn't take a change with a slow puncture you never know how the tyre reacts on the motor way.
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>> I wouldn't take a change with a slow puncture you
>> never know how the tyre reacts on the motor way.
Fair comment. I might have been less sanguine had I not been able to see the flat nail head in the middle of the tread.
I basically haven't used it since it started going down faster, which was explained by the second which looks like a bit of thin wire, again in the middle.
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I am not sure of this winter tyre lark. I suspect fashion and strong marketing. I'm happy to accept that winter tyres have compounds that theoretically are softer and provide more "grip" but in over 30 years of car ownership I have yet to fail to get anywhere in snow on normal tyres. The spiel typically claims that overall performance at lower temperatures is enhanced, but I have never experienced a lack of grip or traction on non-frozen surfaces with normal tyres Perhaps I don't drive fast enough but I never approach the limits of normal tyre grip in wet or dry. Does anyone else?
In very bad snowy conditions, the limiting factor seems to be general chaos and HGVs failing to make it up hills, rather than pure lack of traction.
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>> I am not sure of this winter tyre lark.
Absolutely, Agree with every word.
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"I am not sure of this winter tyre lark"
A non-believer. Heresy!
;-)
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>>I am not sure of this winter tyre lark.
Up to you, I'm not trying to convert anybody:)
I use all seasons on steel wheels in the winter. They are markedly better on snow, and granting that the main problem is "general chaos" I am much more likely to be able to drive round it or use a back road. Maybe there would be less chaos if people either stayed at home or got winter tyres?
I coped for 30 odd years without winter tyres, and from 75-93 in the eastern pennines. I also managed without ABS, ESP, brake assist, power steering, disc brakes, air conditioning, bum warmers, airbags, sat nav and cup holders.
I'm very happy to swap the wheels over. I'd be swapping them round anyway to even out wear. It preserves the stupid lacquered alloys. And the 16" Pirelli Scorpions which still have 7mm of tread are 2/3 the price of, and wear better than, the 18" Continental Cross Contact that are also down to 4mm now.
Basically I'll come out ahead financially and I have better tyres for the job. What some people would call a no brainer.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 18:48
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Basically I'll come out ahead financially ....
Now that statement interests me! You reckon that All Seasons on for say a third of the year will save you money? I've often wondered what the wear rate of these are compared with "summer tyres". And also there's the question of rolling resistance and fuel efficiency.
I'm sure they are significantly better on actual snow, and if I did any kind of mileage on it as you most probably do, I would use them. But in truth, we have maybe 1 day a year or less when there are genuinely snow-covered roads and I may do 10 or 20 miles, probably less once the gritters have been out. The rest of the time the roads are either dry or wet, for which I can see no benefit to me, at least of having winters fitted. But I remain open-minded. My next door neighbour has just had them fitted, so it will be interesting to see if he can get off his drive this year for a change!
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>> Basically I'll come out ahead financially ....
>> Now that statement interests me! You reckon that All Seasons on for say a third
>> of the year will save you money? I've often wondered what the wear rate of
>> these are compared with "summer tyres". And also there's the question of rolling resistance and
>> fuel efficiency.
The wear rate thing depends on what you're comparing - the Michelin Alpin A4 winter's on my wife's car which have been on for 2yrs now will outlast the Dunlop SP2030 summer tyres the car came with.
OK, a Jazz and isn't stretching anything, but on the wet and slimey Cheshire country lanes where the car is used most, it always feels very assured. Oddly, I wasn't blown away by the car's capability when it snowed, but, to be fair, it was fine on the Dunlops too - I reckon they were pretty soft tyres.
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As I've previously mentioned, the FRV 1.8 auto has Michelin Alpins (205/55x16) and wear rate is no worse than the previous Michelin Energy Saver summer tyres. Fuel economy is also no worse, with 40mpg on a 70-80mph Motorway run to Manchester and back (just over 400 miles in all) and about 34mpg in mixed M-Way and country A-road driving.
They are just noticeably worse than the summer tyres on dry roundabouts, and substantially better on snow and ice. I think the Energy Savers were better on wet roads in summer too.
Last winter was quite tame compared to the previous 2 and they only had a week or two of slush/snow (and another week in March iirc).
In my work I don't have a significant commute, but house visits require being able to get through un-cleared schemes/streets and the very thought of plodding half a mile or more through snow in wellies makes me more than happy to shill up for winter tyres (or 4wd in the Forester!)
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>> the very thought of plodding half a mile or more through snow in wellies makes me more than happy to shill up for winter tyres (or 4wd in the Forester!)
Did you watch Dr Finlay's Casebook when you were small or smallish Lygonos?
You wouldn't want to be braving snowdrifts in a Morris 8 tourer, I mean...
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I have just fitted mine today.The main reason i fit them is for the frosty mornings which make driving dangerous.Having skidded sideways going round a corner and ending up facing oncoming traffic i wish never to experience that again.The main problem i have is the summer tyres are very wide and 18" which doesn't equate into a strong grip in winter.The winter wheels are 16" and much narrower.The added bonus of a softer ride during the winter months swings the argument in my eyes.I have put last years front tyres onto the back and vice versa so they get even wear.
In last years snow i went up a steep hill no fuss and no wheel spin whereas the other cars were struggling on the flat.
If you can afford it and have the space to store the spare set then i'd say go for it.Also you will need to be keeping the car for a good few years or else your winter wheels might not fit the new car!
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>>Basically I'll come out ahead financially ...
It's partly a function of the tyre size. The standard tyre are 225/55R18 98V. The homologated 16" size is 215/70R16 100H.
I have been keeping the Pirellis on for 6 months or more and the mileage is about even. The Pirellis have probably benefitted from winter use, I suppose wet roads cause less wear anyway.
I live in west Herts now which is not noted for mountains, even allowing that the scarp of the Chilterns causes a few difficulties in a snowfall, and we are in a rural part well down the gritting list.
As luck would have it, on 18th January this year we finished a short break near Hereford before carrying on to Lockerbie. There was a big fall overnight - the folk we were with had to stay put (RAV4 and a VW Golf). We filled up with food and fuel and set off up the A49, which I wouldn't have attempted on the Contis even with 4WD.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21061224
Assuming I keep the car, I might go for full winters next time. There a much bigger, cheaper choice now - 4 x Nokian WR SUV 3 for the steels are £440 fitted, vs. £660 for 4x Conti Cross Contact UHP for the standard wheels.
ISTR a test using Skoda Yetis - the 2WD on winters beat the 4WD on summer tyres in snow.
But you pays yer money! I don't mind swapping the wheels - that would be a pain for some.
In the past, I might have swapped the Contis at this time of year with barely 4mm of tread - I wouldn't be happy going into winter with them - as it is, I'll wear them out from May-October next year.
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>> >>Basically I'll come out ahead financially ...
>>
>> It's partly a function of the tyre size. The standard tyre are 225/55R18 98V. The
>> homologated 16" size is 215/70R16 100H.
>>
I was thinking that too - on the Jazz the 15" winter tyres are a common size and where about £60. The 16" summer tyres are a pretty unusual size (185/55R16) with only a few choices and a decent make is around £90. So quite a big % difference.
However that ignores the cost of the wheels! I got a set of genuine Honda 15" alloys on eBay for £300 so the fact that the tyres are a bit cheaper is somewhat moot.
I nearly got some for my Mercedes a couple of years ago but didn't bother in the end. MB do deals every year where the wheels aren't far off free, you're basically just paying for the tyres.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 22:43
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"I am not sure of this winter tyre lark"
There's no doubt that they perform incomparably better on snow and ice than normal tyres. Not sure what you're not sure about.
If you think it's not worth the money as you'll be at home on the worst days, well I can see where you're coming from.
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>>There's no doubt that they perform incomparably better on snow and ice than normal tyres
I understand how they would perform better on snow, but how do they perform better on ice?
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Read the tests. The compound and sipes. From personal experience, they make a big difference not only in snow/ice, but also in grip in weather where the road is wet and temperature is low. But we live in the Peak district at 1000 feet. Even our footwear is winterised with spikes.
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I don't doubt that they work, since so many swear by them. I just don't understand why that is so on ice.
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Interesting Fenlander. Do I assume therefore that they wear much faster?
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They did in the early days but the science behind their design has improved and now the wear rates are very acceptable as many with experience on here will confirm.
For our part, as many will know, we run all-weather tyres (with the EU winter rating) all year round on Mrs F's C3. Being a small light car with sensible width tyres it was already good in winter conditions, now it is excellent.
Her Kleber Quadraxers were fitted at 37k with 8mm tread. Car now has 67K and the fronts are down to 4mm, rears 6mm. To me that's a very low wear rate.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 11:32
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To be clear, I'd not argue for one moment on the potential, or indeed actual efficacy of winter tyres. I'm convinced by all the factual and apocryphal information available that they must be of benefit. Just as some other safety features are of measureable benefit such as abs brakes, traction control, disc brakes, radial tyres etc etc.
I guess the moot point is whether an individual feels they of sufficient benefit to want to fit them. I choose not to and seem to manage fine. Others do and appreciate the extra safety margins. Both perfectly acceptable viewpoints surely.
As a by the way, I do though from personal experience find that there is a noticeable difference in climactically challenging conditions in just making sure whatever tyres you have on in the winter have plenty of tread depth.
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>> I do though from personal experience find that there is a noticeable difference in climactically challenging conditions in just making sure whatever tyres you have on in the winter have plenty of tread depth.
>>
I agree.
Being a low mileage type living in a milder part of the country, the cost of high speed rated winter tyres etc is so high especially if I bin the tyres due to age rather than wear, that I plan to stay in when snow arrives and tip toe when it is cold.
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I think that's pretty much my view, it's just not worth it for me to switch for a few miles every other year on snow. But the advertising mentions much of improved grip generally below about 7C due to the tyre compound. Now I'm well aware of different tyre compounds, from riding the bike, but as I said above, I have never yet experienced a lack of grip in cold conditions wet or dry using normal summer compounds, driven sensibly. Of course it is possible to approach the limit of adhesion with excess cornering speed or acceleration but that's due to driver inputs rather than the tyres inadequacies.
All the test videos I have seen have compared winter and summer on frozen lakes or similar, where the results are really a foregone conclusion but that's not what I usually drive on in South Wales. I'd like to see some evidence that the softer compounds provide significant grip and braking advantages on the cold drizzly days that make up the bulk of our winter.
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What I don't understand is why the ambient temperature should have much of an effect on the grip provided by the tyre. Surely what is important is the temperature of the tyre and once the tyre has warmed up after a few miles any gain in performance from a softer low temperature compound will disappear
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The tyre link explains the principle. I suspect that with cold tarmac, any heat build up at normal speeds is soon negated by cooling.
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That was my thought too.
This longer article is useful too... ralphhosier.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/winter-tyres-the-truth/
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Excellent. Last comment on Tg (not something I'd heard of before!) quite illuminating. Still, the point is that rubber choice is pretty important. Unless living in a mild climate, or staying off the roads if the weather is dodgy. I tend to avoid using the car in ice unless I have to: it's just for the unforeseen, like on a trip down the M20 when unexpectedly snow covered there but milder in the midlands.
Last edited by: NIL on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 11:41
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>> The tyre link explains the principle. I suspect that with cold tarmac, any heat build
>> up at normal speeds is soon negated by cooling.
>>
Just feel your tyres after a few miles even in the coldest conditions - they will feel warm to the touch.
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Thanks: I wanted an excuse to buy an IR thermometer!
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That piece from Conti is fairly dumbed down but it seems reasonable to think its directionally correct given the source.
Interestingly they have gone as far as to say that if you don't want to swap tyre sets then using winter tyres year round is the best option, which underlines the point that it isn't just about snow.
I hope they don't catch on. I'd rather the roads aren't any busier when the snow comes.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 11:13
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How far into the rubber will the IR thermometer see?
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>> How far into the rubber will the IR thermometer see?
>>
The heat comes from the flexing, so is therefore generated from within.
If you start driving a car with freezing cold tyres, they presumably flex very little, so don't warm up much.
Is that another reason for lowering tyre pressures - so that the tyres flex more and get warmer?
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Superficial only I'd imagine. Gradient from the brakes/hub?
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Hypothesis.
The outside surface of the tyre is whizzing through the air (ambient) at speed, or in contact with the road, which is likely to be at a similar temperature. It's going to be very cold, just as your hand would be if you stuck it out of the window. If it's wet, it could even be below ambient.
The air in the tyre may be warmer, with a gradient across the carcass.
When you park up, the heat soaks through to the outer surface, wind chill is removed, still(er) air forms a layer, and the surface warms up before you put your hand on it.
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I'll get SWMBO to lean out with the IR thermo. (when it arrives) and measure in motion:) Compare with temp. at rest? Other than tyres, I want to look for cold spots around the house. My excuses being assembled....
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With a similarly weak excuse I managed to buy a laser rev counter the other year.... hours of harmless fun seeing how fast this and that turns.
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I took my wife's Focus in on Friday for 2 x Bridgestone A001 All-weather tyres to be fitted on the front, with the best two of the current tyres going onto the rear. The car is now 11 years old and, assuming it is still running well next year, then the plan is to put all-weather tyres on all wheels.
I should perhaps reiterate that the car only does about 7k miles per year and the mixture of rural roads and built-up area driving means that it rarely exceeds 50mph. The school where my wife teaches is best described as 'out in the sticks'.
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The majority of drivers won't use proper winter tyres in the UK in my opinion due to the cost involved.
Unless somebody finds a different way for the price to come down,it would save lives in winter weather wouldn't it.
A cousin of mine has 4 spare wheels and winter tyres in his garage.Maybe a silly question I have Michelin tyres on our car but arn't all tyres All Weather tyres?
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Having just got a new car, and it having optional 4WD, I was looking at the cost of winter tyres. I have been trying to tell people that 4WD isn't necessarily any better in the snow than 2WD but I can't help but feel if we do get lots of snow, they will suddenly think that my car can go where others can't.... If I am going to keep the car for 4/5 years then I feel that over the term then it wouldn't actually cost that much more in tyre costs as you are effectively just reducing the wear on each set.
But there are few winter tyres available in my size and the cheapest, called Sailun, apparently are very good in Canadian snow but not so good on the slush and wet.
And from what I can see there is high demand for used winter tyres so even if I did change cars, I could always sell the spare tyres off.
Back to the old question - would you buy a used tyre? If not , do you change all the tyres when you buy a used car.....
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>>,it would save lives in winter weather wouldn't it.
I am not arguing against winter tyre usage, however;
1,800 people died on the roads in 2012.
35million people have a full driving licence - so its not even a meaningful percentage.
I can't quite see how anything can bring that down, never mind tyres. That percentage will find a way to die whatever you do.
492,242 people died in 1010.
11,438 from accidents in general
1,970 from transport accidents, and that includes things like pedestrians hit by trains and deaths involving boats and airplanes.
Driving is a pretty safe activity and I don't really see how the death rate can go much lower.
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"492,242 people died in 1010."
The dreaded lurgy?
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>> The dreaded lurgy?
1010
Battle of Ringmere: Danish leader Thorkell the Tall defeats English army, and ravages East Anglia and Mercia.
No road deaths reported though.
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>>
>>
>> >> The dreaded lurgy?
>>
>> 1010
>> Battle of Ringmere: Danish leader Thorkell the Tall defeats English army, and ravages East Anglia
>> and Mercia.
>>
>>
>> No road deaths reported though.
There you go - can't trust government statistics. Somebody must have fallen under a cart.
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"it would save lives in winter weather wouldn't it."
We didn't fit the all-seasons tyres with a view to 'saving lives'; I guess , like most people, they were fitted in order to 'keep moving' in winter conditions and get to work.
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>> The majority of drivers won't use proper winter tyres in the UK in my opinion
>> due to the cost involved.
Cost, habit, apathy. Unless compelled.
>>
>> Unless somebody finds a different way for the price to come down,it would save lives
>> in winter weather wouldn't it.
Winter tyres seem to be readily available at attractive prices now, after shortages in the last year or two. That could change if the market doesn't grow. Still an investment, unless you follow Continental's suggestion that winters all year are a better compromise than summers.
I'm not sure it will save lives. Humans tend to take performance benefits rather than reduce risk. Imagine all those clueless people you see, trying to boil the ice from under the tyres by spinning the wheels furiously, getting "winter tyres" and thinking they can go anywhere anytime. They'll just be going faster, or be further from home when they crash or get stuck.
>> A cousin of mine has 4 spare wheels and winter tyres in his garage.Maybe a
>> silly question I have Michelin tyres on our car but arn't all tyres All Weather
>> tyres?
Up to a point, and in temperate climes like ours. The best solution to just about anything is a compromise. Any tyre is a compromise, it's just what compromise you want. Summer tyres could be made much grippier in the dry, at the expense of falling off the road in a shower - just like Lewis Hamilton's.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 14:08
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>> >> Any tyre is a compromise, it's just what compromise you
>> want.
>>
You see this when choosing tyres for a landrover. The best tyres for gripping in mud or deep snow have enormous chunky treads like tractors. But they are hopeless on a smooth wet road or on ice - you can spin off a roundabout at 20mph if not careful.
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My Land Rover 90 fitted with M&S tyres was horrible in snow. Admittedly it would get going more efficiently than most other things in deep snow but getting the ruddy thing to stop or turn once moving at any speed in those conditions was to say the least, entertaining.
I used to nick my then girlfriend's Fiat Panda Mk1 ( 2wd on summer tyres ) whenever possible when conditions got bad. It took a bit more effort to start off but at least you could flick it about on corners and stop when required without being the victim of some Newtonian theory.
So much so that when we went to Switzerland skiing we took the Panda rather than the Landy. Quite a lot easier on the juice too unsurprisingly.
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Well, some good stuff flushed out on this thread, particularly the link above. For the UK it may make sense to use All Season tyres as a half way house for the kind of weather we get. Might stick a pair on the front of the Focus next time just to see what they're like in the cold and damp.
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In my Altea I had Kleber Quadraxer all seasons on it - no noticeable difference during summer apart from one very hot day on a windy twisty road outside Largs , I nearly lost it on a bend and was convinced that the tyres were to blame.
Having said that , this March we had a snowfall and the tyres struggled to grip in an uphill slope which was the exact scenario that I got them for in the first instance! But to be fair, they were maybe down to about 3 or 4 mm by that point.
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What I find strange when I used to drive the old VW Beetles on remoulds they took me anywhere in snow.Drove a new Focus last year absolut useless in snow or ice.I hope the CP4 Picasso on Michelins is better,have to wait and see.
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I was a big fan of Uniroyal Rain Experts on our little Panda. I see that mytyres are now listing Uniroyal Allweather Experts for around £60 a corner fitted, in the Honda Jazz size.
In a way I wish the current Contis were a bit less thick in remaining tread, as I cannot really justify £240 negative cashflow at present, particularly after the distress purchase of a new oven last week.
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 17:27
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>> The majority of drivers won't use proper winter tyres in the UK in my opinion
>> due to the cost involved.
>>
But it's only a one-off cost. You only ever have one set of tyres on the car at any one time. If you have one set on for 6 months and a different set on for 6 months (just for example) they will last twice as long. So the only extra cost is a one-off purchase of tyres and rims for set number 2, and replacements are correspondingly fewer of each type.
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Storage may be an issue too.
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But they can store outdoors. If you are happy to expose them to 6 months of winter weather and salty roads then they won't come to any harm stacked under a tarpaulin behind the garage for the summer.
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I read somewhere (Honest J?) that tyres should only be kept for 5 years regardless of wear because of deterioration of rubber with time. Mind you, the tyres on my old trailer must have been 20 years old!
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I think winter tyres are a clever marketing opportunity....unless you live where they are beneficial. Living in the Y Dales, at an elevation around 850', I personally choose to only have one set of tyres. When the tyres as fitted when bought were not up to the job, I fitted Michelin Alpins. They have been worth their weight in gold as I live at the top of a steep short rise, off a narrow country lane, which in places is single track.
I walk to work, but as rural transport is poor in my part of the world, being able to drive to the nearest 'proper' road is a bonus.
When working in retailing I used to deliver to rural properties all around Wharfedale & Airedale, and my VW Syncro ran winter tyres throughout the winter months, thus making my job easier and keeping my customers happy. OTOH if I lived in a built up, urban area then I would not consider winter tyres. Horses for courses...but the Alpins have exceeded my expectations, getting me home when neighbours have been stranded 10 miles away in their CRV's etc on short steep inclines. I kid you not.
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It is still a cost Mike.You know I do come to the conclusion that it is a marketing ploy.Winter and Summer Tyres.A good quality tyre should be fine for all the seasons.Also so called wintertyres work better in snow due to the softer rubber compound.
On icy roads you will still skid if you drive like a nutcase on wintertyres.Had a read on some continental forums lots of drivers keep the winter tyre on all the year round.
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Back up to 10C again here tonight. Must be a faff having those wheels on and off every other day.
;-)
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Runfer...you assume that one only has access to a limited choice of motorised transport. And that one does not have a general handyman 'downstairs' to fulfil these menial tasks.
Now, back to the Ardbeg.
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Got me thinking, do aircraft use winter/summertyres?
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None that I've come across. Might be different if you were some sort of Arctic airline.
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>> Now, back to the Ardbeg.
>>
Snap !
Ted
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>>Now, back to the Ardbeg
That must be similar taste-wise to Laphroaig, Shirley?
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>> It is still a cost Mike.You know I do come to the conclusion that it
>> is a marketing ploy.Winter and Summer Tyres.A good quality tyre should be fine for all
>> the seasons.Also so called wintertyres work better in snow due to the softer rubber compound.
>>
>> On icy roads you will still skid if you drive like a nutcase on wintertyres.Had
>> a read on some continental forums lots of drivers keep the winter tyre on all
>> the year round.
>>
Just stating the facts Dutchie! I really don't have the technical knowledge to debate the facts, nor the inclination to research them. For me, living in Austria, it's a fact of life that from 1st November to 15th April winter tyres are mandated. Many drivers keep the winters on all year simply for reasons of economy, as winter tyres (i.e. those used in the winter) are only legal down to 4mm, and summers down to 2mm, that is, winter tyres used in the summer season can be used down to 2mm. Therefore you can get a lot of extra life out of a winter tyre by running it in the summer, and thereby reduce your overall running costs. I choose not to do so, as my winter tyres are 205/55 16s, and the summers 225/45 17s. If I ran the wider tyres in the winter, I wouldn't be able to fit chains when and if necessary due to clearance issues.
As a matter of interest, you mention ice. I did find out a couple or so year ago that in really icy places e.g. Finland, Sweden, they have different winter tyres than those in mainland Europe, being optimised for ice rather than snow.
Last edited by: Mike H on Thu 28 Nov 13 at 08:53
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Winter wheels on today :) - Dutchie
