So as not to rob any more of another thread, I thought I'd start a new one on this.
So, here's the basics, my son wants to learn to drive as soon as he's 17, that's a year away from now so there's plenty of time to reflect on the situation.
Of course I'll stump up for a course of professional driving lessons for him but I'd also want to be in a position to give him private tuition.
I have a company car so using that isn't an option.
My wife has a 6 year old, manual, 1.6 petrol Qashqai which potentially he could practice on if insurance isn't too scary.
Alternatively, we could look to changing the Qashqai to a smaller, more insurance friendly car sometime in the next 12 months in preparation.
Or, I could look to source a third car specifically for him to learn on and with a view to it being his first car when he passes.
As mentioned elsewhere, he doesn't really mind what he drives yet but even now is probably at least interested to look beyond the default small hatchback most young people learn on now due to insurance restrictions.
He's not discounting a classic, or tangentially, a 4x4, the latter would suit some of his hobbies which involve mountain biking and surfing which can involve muddy or sandy areas.
But the nub of the question really is, for those who have been through this, is it better to buy him his own car to trash or let him trash his mother's?
If the former, would you ( I think I would ) buy something as cheap and cheerful as possible while ensuring it is safe and driveable, or would you stretch to something more modern and possibly safer?
Or, do we let him learn in mum's so that she has an excuse in due course to say that she will need a new one now that he's cream crackered it?
Again as mentioned elsewhere, I learned on a larger car and I still think that's no bad thing.
So, on the possible list...
Older C1 or equivalent
Older Vitara or equivalent
MGB or some such
Or, a newish small hatch for him with a view to him keeping it.
Or, a new or newish small hatch ( VW Up maybe ) for mum and he learns on it.
Or, borrow mum's Qashqai for now.
Budget is flexible but not bottomless !
Any advice, thoughts, experiences, warnings or whatever welcome.
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First of all he's got to be really keen on learning to drive. I've seen lots of children pushed into it by their parents and it's not been successful.
I'd advise you not to buy him a car. Again, I've seen numerous teenagers write off cars they've been given in a very short time. If they've not had to work for it, then it's valueless to them and they won't treat it with respect.
Both my children desperately wanted to drive. They had part-time jobs while still at school and they used that income to buy, tax and insure half a car - I paid the other half. All bills were dealt with in the same way, although it was mostly parts as I provided the labour. One exception I made was damaged tyres - they quickly learned not to bump up kerbs!
It meant I spent many hours maintaining first an old Estelle and then a Metro. Fortunately for me, neither could afford it when they went to uni.
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Ok thanks BT, so in my circumstances would you advise keeping the Qq and letting him practice on that while maybe saying to him that if he wants his own car in due course he'll need to find a way of at least part funding it himself? The "keenness" box is well and truly ticked by the way, he can't wait.
Edit - Anyone got a view on 16 year olds and mopeds? He's not broached that but in case he does I'd like to have an informed opinion. I never had one so I'm not in a strong position to hold a balanced ( sorry about that ) view.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 14:36
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MGB....teach him the value of all the soft driver aids on today's cars. And he'll learn about RWD the hard way..
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That was the right answer Rob ( for me anyway! ) MGB GT I thought, gets his bike/boards on the roof too...
I don't think he'd resist that idea much and what's more, he'd by default have to learn some basic maintenance.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 14:41
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A choir colleague of mine one upped everyone at Xmas by getting her 17 year old daughter a 12 plate Skoda Citigo. Cost about £5000 I think, and I haven't asked what insurance is costing. I understand such behaviour is de rigeur in Wilmslow though.
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If it had been Alderley Edge it would have been an Up...
;-)
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You need to sort out what the insurance would be first.
When I was selling cars, it wasn't unusual for me to be asked by someone local to sort out a car in similar circs to yours.
I was surprised by the difference in insurance premiums...e.g. a 1248cc car was £200 p.a. more expensive than a 1196cc car.... yet, you or I would just assume it's a 1.2 petrol and 'that will be fine'.
Off the top of my head the Seat/VW 1.0 or 1.2's were a 'yes' as was the Vx Corsa.
I'd be very surprised if the 1.6 Qashqai isn't loaded badly on the insurance.
No one of that age could afford any diesel for example.
As for new versus old, i'd go for oldish new type if that makes sense, so 8 or 9 years old. New enough for ABS and airbags, old enough for the odd knock not to matter.
There will be a price premium though, everyone goes on to the insurance price comparison websites and tries to get it down as low as possible... and those cars then become popular.
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>>Anyone got a view on 16 year olds and mopeds? He's not broached
>> that but in case he does I'd like to have an informed opinion. I never
>> had one so I'm not in a strong position to hold a balanced ( sorry
>> about that ) view.
As an ex-biker (I don't bounce as well as I used to) I'd say it's an excellent idea. He'd have to do his CBT, which usually starts off-road with basic manoeuvring on school bikes. That'll give him a thorough grounding in observation, predicting what other road users are going to do and the physics of tyre grip (if he wants to survive).
I suspect RP will be along to agree with me, as IIRC he also did the RAC/ACU training.
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>> As an ex-biker (I don't bounce as well as I used to) I'd say it's
>> an excellent idea. He'd have to do his CBT, which usually starts off-road with basic
>> manoeuvring on school bikes. That'll give him a thorough grounding in observation, predicting what other
>> road users are going to do and the physics of tyre grip (if he wants
>> to survive).
>>
>> I suspect RP will be along to agree with me, as IIRC he also did
>> the RAC/ACU training.
>>
Seconded. There is, in my opinion, no better way to learn hazard perception on the roads. Of course, back in the day most of us did that anyway by default, since for one thing small motorbikes were much cheaper than cars ;for another there was no CBT and you simply bought your insurance and the bike and wobbled off down the street.
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Posted on subject before but to keep stuff in one place....
We went for the drive Mum or Dad's car solution. Didn't have £5k+ for dealer forecourt territory vehicles, never mind the second that would be implied for the following sibling. Any third car would thus have been close to bangernomics territory but changing oil etc is limit of my tech skills so garage attention would have to be paid for.
Also relevant was that while we could, just, get one or even two more cars on the drive shuffling them would have been a constant PITA. There's enough overflow parking on the road by neighbours with less drive space than me without adding to it.
Miss B was first to pass 17 and was insured on my Xantia. Premium increase was about 150% but that was still cheaper than Mrs B's Berlingo. In fact I think that would have needed a change of insurer.
Took her out in it first time after she'd had about four hours 'dual' with the professional instructor. Initially just round the warehouse estate at Swann Valley/Pineham. Glad we were off main roads as it 'ran away' trying three point turn and mounted the kerb. Easily arrested by knocking it out of gear and pulling on the handbrake which on Xant operated on front wheels but could have been much worse. Got a lot of practice driving on family outings including nearly all off motorway segments of a trip to the Hebrides. Passed test first time after 6 months couple of weeks after we got back from Scotland.
A change of insurer to Admiral when she was 18 reduced premium to near 2adult cost, so sheended up insured to drive either car. Only after two years did it emerge that although they'd got the DoB correct they'd calculated her age as 29!!
She scuffed the front bumper in a local car park we all struggle to manoeuvre on' Also did more substantial damage during a panic reverse when bullied by an Agricultural tractor on one of our numerous narrow bridges locally. Not worth a claim though.
Her brother went down a similar course except driving Mrs B's Berlingo. Since passing his test he's led a charmed life and never touched anything with car. Not 'cos he's a good driver; far too fast and lacks anticipation. Only a fornight ago I had to instruct him to stop and take over as his driving in wet urban Liverpool was frightening his Mother (an me to a degree!).
Miss B's b/f's family went down the other route and, when he was 17 in 2008, bought him a new Pug 107. Had its fair share of scrapes too albeit most when he was at Uni. He's still got it though. Miss B is now main driver for her commute to work - he cycles.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 15:05
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>> >> It meant I spent many hours maintaining first an old Estelle and then a Metro.
>> Fortunately for me, neither could afford it when they went to uni.
>>
THIS!
Have the kids holding the spanners and screwdrivers, and learning exactly WHAT happens when you hit the brakes, the clutch, the accelerator etc
If they know how things work, as opposed to the fact that they work when you push the pedals, then they will develop some mechanical sympathy, which always makes for better drivers, in my experience.
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The first thing I would do as a reality check is to get a quote for the insurance. I think you could be looking at £2,500 for a 17 year old.
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>> Or, borrow mum's Qashqai for now.
As your son is not too bothered about what he drives, I would think the Qashqai is the best option in terms of his safety as a new driver. It's not too ancient at 6 years, and unlike the alternatives, he'll be surrounded by plenty of metal.
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...depending on how much driving you want him to do, you might find Learner Driver insurance useful.
My son did most of his learning with professional tuition, but we funded learner driver insurance for a month on the run-up to his test, and then gave him some intensive practice (not tuition) in SWMBO's car.
For a limited time it was more cost-effective than adding him to the annual premium, and longer periods are available, or it can be renewed periodically (though it is better value buying the required period up-front).
It is completely separate insurance to the base policy for the car, and as such means that for the main policy's NCD etc. are not at risk when he mysteriously loses a door mirror.
Whatever term is bought, the policy ceases to be valid as and when the test is passed.
We used "Provisional Marmalade", but there are others (Collingwood was another, I think).
www.wearemarmalade.co.uk/learner-driver-insurance
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As a former ADI this is the way I would go. Buy a cheap runaround and fit these -
www.gradesixsupplies.com/dual-controls/fast-dual-control-kit
Like most people here who are interested in cars and driving you should be perfectly capable of getting your son to test standard, there are plenty of books that give you the exact requirements of what the examiner will expect to see on test. A few lessons with a professional before the day to polish up and get taken round the test routes so there are no tricky surprises would be a good idea.
The car and the controls will pay for themselves with lessons now somewhere north of twenty quid a time and both will be resellable afterwards.
I taught myself to drive on a Reliant Regal courtesy of having a motorcycle licence and only had two or three "Polish up" lessons before the day. The fact that your lad is a regular cyclist will mean he has a good appreciation of the rules of the road already.
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Oh... i'm told the learner's premium is cheaper than when they pass and go out on their own. No idea if that's true, but that's what I've been told.
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>> Oh... i'm told the learner's premium is cheaper than when they pass and go out
>> on their own. No idea if that's true, but that's what I've been told.
That was certainly the case for my two.
OTOH premiums for them to be additional drivers on medium/large 1.8 - 2.0 diesels were under £1k. More than double what I was paying and with a mandatory £500 excess if they did damage. Lot less than some numbers upthread.
Depends entirely on your insurer though. Others may refuse to quote.
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Any views on 16 year olds and mopeds Robin?
I worry a bit, but happy to listen to counterpoints.
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>> Any views on 16 year olds and mopeds Robin?
>>
>> I worry a bit, but happy to listen to counterpoints.
>>
Motorcyclists were a joy to teach to drive. They already understood what all the controls did and how to use them properly, and obviously they came with finely honed roadcraft skills or they wouldn't have survived.
Now I was a biker for a large part of my life and enjoyed it, but if I had kids and one of them told me he or she wanted a powered two wheeler my blood would have run cold - as did my old mans (Himself an ex motorcyclist) when I first got one.
You know your son and how sensible he is, I honestly wouldn't dare advise one way or the other.
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Just re-read all the ( very useful ) comments above again. Seems a bit of a case for changing "her" car to an Up or similar for a year or two...
Hmmm
Oh well, still plenty of time to agonise...
;-)
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>> Just re-read all the ( very useful ) comments above again. Seems a bit of
>> a case for changing "her" car to an Up or similar for a year or
>> two...
>>
>> Hmmm
>>
>> Oh well, still plenty of time to agonise...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
The Up! Is a great little car, but, and it might be an issue and it might not, but you stand no chance of getting a bike in the back!! I wouldn't want to hang a bike rack off the tailgate either, as it appears to be completely glass, on the outside at least...
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Would it take roof bars Peter?
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>> Would it take roof bars Peter?
>>
I'm pretty sure they're in the accessory brochure, so I imagine so. The three door is far better looking, IMO, for what it's worth ;). And the three cylinder engine revels in being thrashed once in a while :)
www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/common/pdf/accessories/volkswagen-accessories.pdf
It is much smaller than a Qashqai though, and lower, so check that Mrs Runfer is happy with it... Avoid the High Up! (painted wing mirrors... :p)
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 6 Feb 16 at 22:10
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Thanks Peter. Narrower than a Qashqai though...
;-)
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>> Thanks Peter. Narrower than a Qashqai though...
>>
>> ;-)
>
Widest car in the world the Qashqai
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How do we always end up back here? It's like a game of Mornington Crescent !
;-)
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>> How do we always end up back here? It's like a game of Mornington Crescent
>> !
>>
>> ;-)
Perhaps we should rename the Squashcow "Groundhog"?
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Or rename those who keep bringing up the mirror thing as...no it's ok I'll keep that one under the radar...
;-)
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>> Just re-read all the ( very useful ) comments above again. Seems a bit of
>> a case for changing "her" car to an Up or similar for a year or
>> two...
>>
>> Hmmm
>>
>> Oh well, still plenty of time to agonise...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
Another option for roomy, cheap, and almost disposable for you wealthy folk, (not sure about the insurance) is a Dacia. Hatchback, estate or 4x4 available, it only has to be for the learner phase if the image is not suitable.
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....And cheaper door-mirrors....
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I do not know the transport situation in your situation so how important is it to drive rather than just image?
My two wanted to learn to drive and I came to an agreement. Delay learning to drive and concentrate on your studies. I will be prepared to spend whatever is required.
I bought an old knackered Fiat UNO for buttons not expecting it to be used for longer trips but daughter really did need it.
I did a few trips on the Mway in the " slow" very slow lane with the heavies and that decided she needed a reliable car with a little bit of poke.
Bought a S/H early higher mileage 1.3 Yaris with all the comfort bits.
Still performing well after 15 years and she still loves it even though it is treated like a skip!!!
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>>>>
>> My two wanted to learn to drive and I came to an agreement. Delay learning
>> to drive and concentrate on your studies. I will be prepared to spend whatever is
>> required.
>>
>>
Seventeen year olds learn reasonably quickly. Even the few years extra when people reach their twenties there is a marked difference in the number of lessons it takes to get through the test.
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I know what you mean Henry, but where we are is a typical, fairly rural small town with limited facilities. To gain access to the wider world he is going to benefit from having personal transport. At his age I would feel trapped here ( frankly at my age I do a bit but it's where "she" is from and wants to live...)
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.....we decided it was best to let ours learn asap, though both of them were then discouraged from having a car whilst they were students.
They have the time and the inclination at 17, and there is an additional advantage of passing early and not having a car for a few years such that the need to resit your test if you accrue 6 points in the first two years after passing is avoided (though it seems odd that you can avoid this by not driving at all for two years).
Just looked back at the separate learner driver insurance we took on. It was £88.50 for the month 3 years ago (and less, pro-rata, for periods longer than this). Separate, fully comp insurance for the (supervised) nominated learner driver only.
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We've been through this in recent years with three children, the youngest 17 and taking his test in a few weeks' time.
Some thoughts:
Learn on the driving instructor's car. He knows the routes, knows the tricks. Wear his clutch out, not yours.
Be very wary of introducing inadvertently your own ingrained habits. Practice in later sessions on your own car is OK, but only interspersed with lots of driving instructor lessons to catch any bad habits.
Small cars are not the cheapest to insure. If he really doesn't mind what he drives get a 25 year old Vovo estate. No 17 year old drives them, so they have an impecable claims history.
Expect the premium to go up, possibly double, when he passes.
If you buy a car specially for him, he will be the main driver, which will push the premium up. Make sure he is a secondary driver, with some good adult experienced drivers as the main ones. You don't want a main driver as a student driving to college.
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I recommend you search for Fenlander's thoughts and writings on this subject. I think he'd pretty much got the whole approach sorted.
Or hope you attract the attention of the man himself.
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My insurance company was happy to include my daughter as long as she was at my home address but not at her college address.
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Friends are going through the same process now. They opted for an i10. Being sensible people they will have done their homework first so I assume they must be one of the cheapest options to insure.
Personally if its a viable option I'd try and get him in the cashcow. Firstly I favour learning in something bigger, plus you already know where you can get new wing mirrors........seriously though you mentioned that its in that sweet spot of being paid for and not really owing you anything so you'd probably be less upset if anything did happen to it
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Think there might be shades of daddy influencing/inflciting choice of wagon on Junior here.
Word of caution, Mummy/junior share of car wont work. Recipe for much agro.
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>> Word of caution, Mummy/junior share of car wont work. Recipe for much agro.
Can work if parental use is reasonably predictable.
Miss B/Lad often got up early to drop me at station for 07:40 London train. She/he had car all day. I'd call her/him (or Mum if agreed in advance) for taxi home on leaving Euston.
Alternatively I drove in solo but kidz knew where car was on station car park and collected at their convenience.
Still works now (substituting the Council car park for which CAB give me a permit for station) if they want to collect car rather than drop me off at the office.
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>> Think there might be shades of daddy influencing/inflciting choice of wagon on Junior here
That is a more than fair point Z, but being a fully paid up car nerd I suppose that was sort bound to happen a bit. I'll try my best to keep it under control. ;-)
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>> I recommend you search for Fenlander's thoughts and writings on this subject. I think he'd
>> pretty much got the whole approach sorted.
>>
>> Or hope you attract the attention of the man himself.
Aye, he wrote the definitive guide.
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I have sourced a few C1s for customers in the last few years, for parents who want a cheap car for their kids. Being a Citroen, they are usually a bit cheaper than the Aygo. I don't normally recommend french cars but the C1 has a chain-cam Toyota petrol engine whatever badge is on the bonnet. The diesel is a PSA affair but few are around.
I would not recommend a MGB or old Defender (I think it was mentioned in the other thread). You will always be spending money on maintenance.
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I know you are right Snowman and your comments are genuinely appreciated, but in some ways I see a benefit in having to keep his first vehicle fettled, maybe it'll teach him a bit about how they work.
A C1 would though provide an affordable and practical solution.
A pal who was "between jobs" bought an old one to get him about and attend interviews etc. He more or less fell in love with it. Still has it as a spare.
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Re the moped point.
I had a series of mopeds and small bikes before getting a car at aged 20 or so. I had more close shaves in those few years of riding a moped than in 40 years of subsequent car driving. Two wheels on wet roads, steamy visors, diesel patches, and manic drivers are not easy bedfellows.
Experienced (not learner) motorcyclists are skilled survivors and are among the best road users I see, but the road conditions and laws of physics are against them.
Runfer might want to reflect on any scrapes he had and survived as a young driver and consider the same incidents on a moped. One misjudgement in a car and you have some bent metal; on a bike its your body that takes the impact.
Sorry to put a downer on this but despite the undoubted thrill of biking the much safer initial option is a car with its metal, airbags, abs, heater and music .............and back seat ;-)
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>> Re the moped point.
>>
>>
As cyclists I am sure you are aware that it is not a good plan to use a two wheeler unless you are prepared to fall, or be knocked off it occaisionally.
Chatting to a friend who lives in Italy I commented that I found the scooter drivers suicidal when driving. His reply was surprisingly few get killed but there are usually a couple with broken bones each week. This was in a big regional town.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 7 Feb 16 at 09:20
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How about one of the last generation Fiat Pandas ? Cheap to run and insure and fun to drive. Plus being a boxy shape it may be possible to get the bikes in the back with the seats down.
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Well, re the bike thing, oddly enough we both have the same attitude. Show us a near vertical brain out drop off on mud or scree, or a leap over a stream or a series of humps and jumps and we'll throw ourselves down, over and through those all day long with the inevitable occasional unplanned and sometimes dramatic dismount!
Riding through traffic though we both find quite scary. We do it, but with far more trepidation than tackling a tough trail.
The Panda idea appeals, I like them and especially one of the little rufty tufty 4x4 versions. Wife likes those too...
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We don't live in Alderley Edge but both of ours were give a new car when they had passed, on the basis that it was the only one they were going to get so they had better look after it.
My daughter did a training year when she was 18, as a sponsored student, living away, and we bought a Ka. 1999, cars were expensive then, and it was about £7k. Sold it 9 years later, in decent condition, when she was living permanently in Cambridge and didn't need it.
In fact it lived here most of the time she was at University, and my son learnt on it. When he passed, we bought him a new Panda - a better car than the Ka, and at £5,700 considerably cheaper. That was 2005 and he still has it. The interior is disgusting, but he has never ragged it and it runs well, and has never needed costly repair.
It felt indulgent at that time, but with hindsight I don't regret it - I wasn't spending time fixing them or forking out for repairs, and I thought they were considerably safer than the frankly dangerous bangers I had. I've never had much luck with second hand cars.
I agree that motor bikes imbue road sense through painful experience, but I think teaching is a better and safer approach. I was lucky to survive my scootering/biking accidents almost scratch free, one T bone with a car that pulled out of a junction only yards ahead of me, and pitched me over its roof, and another incident with a car that pulled out while I was overtaking it on a dual carriageway, putting me onto the central reservation at 70mph.
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If he is not into image, how about a Fabia? Lots around at a range of prices, ages and mileages. May even get an off road cycle in the back with minimal dismantling. Our son's first car was a self bought Felicia diesel which was written off when stationary. Succeeded by a 206, then his current Corsa. Wouldn't recommend the 206, too many bills, Corsa is ok. However it's still his old Felicia he has a nostalgic regard for.
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>> If he is not into image, how about a Fabia?
There is not into image, and there is ridicule from your mates. (unless its an VRS)
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Just checked Martin, evidently a Citygo would be more than acceptable ( failing the option of a Yeti )
;-)
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>> The Panda idea appeals, I like them and especially one of the little rufty tufty
>> 4x4 versions. Wife likes those too...
There you go again Humph. You really must reign in the influencing.
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What cars is he interested in and are vaguely doable as a first car?
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He likes, Polo, Mini, Fiesta and oddly enough, Jimny/Vitara. Also, he doesn't mind the notion of a classic.
Hmmm, wonder if he'd be into building a Westfield...
It wouldn't be for me or anything you understand, just a good experience for him for which I'd make time...
;-)
Edit - incidentally, not really worried about whether bikes would go in the boot provided they can go on the roof. They're usually way too muddy to put back in the car anyway.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sun 7 Feb 16 at 14:11
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>>
>> Hmmm, wonder if he'd be into building a Westfield...
>>
...you'll have to shift an awful lot more shoes to be able to afford to insure him for that.....
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You're probably right, but mine was astonishingly cheap to insure, about half what we were then paying on my wife's Mk1 Panda ! There are specialist insurance companies for "odd" cars.
Wouldn't take a bike rack though.
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>> Wouldn't take a bike rack though.
>>
It would tow a light trailer.......rapidly. :-)
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I'm sort of toying with the notion mind you, not of course as "his" first car. ( Quickest way into ditch you can think of in inexperienced hands ) and it does sort of come to you that the crumple zone is actually your legs so not really ideal until he has a bit of time behind the wheel.
But, I was thinking that ( if he was interested ) we could maybe build one anyway over the next year or so. Might give him a better understanding of how cars work.
Not that I'd be doing it for me or anything...
;-)
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>> >>
>> But, I was thinking that ( if he was interested ) we could maybe build
>> one anyway over the next year or so. Might give him a better understanding of
>> how cars work.
>>
>> Not that I'd be doing it for me or anything...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
That's a great idea as it happens. I developed an early understanding of mechanical sympathy through helping (Annoying the hell out of) my old man when he worked on cars. When you can picture what is actually going on when you press a pedal or move a lever you learn to do it in a way that doesn't muller something.
And you never know, he might even let you drive it occasionally.
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Runfer
Have you or he seen this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_Roadster
If you and or he are handy with tools, just about the cheapest way of getting a Lotus 7 lookalike. And if he 'builds' it he ought to treat it with respect.
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Looks fun Slidey !
Years ago, I didn't actually build a Westfield from scratch but instead bought a fairly tired one and stripped it down and re-built it.
Thoroughly enjoyed the project and eventually the car. Taught me a lot but being based on a Ford 1600 Kent engine kept it fairly simple.
We took it on a "grand tour" of Europe for our honeymoon and for several years afterwards it formed the basis of our holidays. It was only when the above mentioned Jnr came along that the lack of seats became an issue and I sold it.
Hankered a bit to do it from scratch since...
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If it's not an automatic....It must be a Haynes Manual........geddit ?
I'll get me.....
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MGB GT?
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C702938 wouldn't be much to insure for a youngster would it?
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I think that one might be!
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Drove past this this afternoon...
www.spurofslindon.co.uk/used-car-mg-mgb-2-door-578
Though I am tempted by something like this...
www.spurofslindon.co.uk/used-car-lotus-elise-convertible-596
Of course something like this is more sensible:
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510137766689
Last edited by: PeterS on Sun 7 Feb 16 at 20:48
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Do it Peter ! Soon be Spring...
;-)
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>> Do it Peter ! Soon be Spring...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
I don't need a Panda :p
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Haha...yes, I knew that really :)
128k miles though, and I think it's the Rover 'K' series engine isn't it? The one prone to head gasket failure...though, if it's lasted that long...
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>> He likes, Polo, Mini, Fiesta and oddly enough, Jimny/Vitara. Also, he doesn't mind the notion
>> of a classic.
>>
That's narrowed it down a bit, but I don't think you could go wrong with a Fiesta.
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I'm sure that's true. Although I have heard that reverse parking them can be challenging even for experienced drivers. Might just be a rumour of course.
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>> Ask Zero...
Don't talk to me about it.
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. Also, he doesn't mind the notion
>> of a classic.
>>
Just as a side note, how much is he interested in classics, or is he saying he thinks they're ok so as to not disappoint you ?
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Hard to say of course, but it was him that mentioned it. The older brother of one of his pals has an old but very tidy Spitfire and they were chuntering about whether that was a way to get a fun car without the insurance difficulties applying to young drivers.
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Fair enough, I don't know him of course, I think perhaps a classic might not be ideal as a first car though. I know when I got mine and most others all I wanted to do was use it and go out with my mates. A classic with the fettling required mean he could find it frustrating, if you see what I mean. Of course there is the upside that he might enjoy the fiddling and fettling that a classic car brings, but might that get old quick? Just my thoughts.
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Any saving in insurance will be more than swallowed up by the maintenance costs of a classic car. And then some. Particularly a British Leyland classic car. Buy a C1 or Picanto and have it done.
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>> a British Leyland classic car.
A contradicton in terms.
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>> A contradiction in terms.
Mini Cooper S? In fact even a plain cooking Issigonis Mini would qualify?
My local purveyor of classics currently has an Austin Maxi on his forecourt - not my definition of classic I hasten to add. .
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 9 Feb 16 at 14:42
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>> My local purveyor of classics currently has an Austin Maxi on his forecourt - not
>> my definition of classic I hasten to add. .
A classic of its time and perfect for my growing family then.
Just don't expect to find any gear you're looking for!
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>> Just don't expect to find any gear you're looking for!
>>
With a fragile lower part of the distributor drive shaft on the 1.5 engine, shame it was the drive for the oil pump.
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A Renault Espace would be a good, safe car for a youngster, and he can get many bikes in the back.
;-)
My choice would be Volvo 340. I'm actually regretting selling my old 360 now, thinking it would be the ideal car for a teenager to learn in. I'm keeping an eye out for any time warp example which might surface locally, but they are getting rarer and rarer. I have 6 years though until my first hits 17.
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>> A Renault Espace would be a good, safe car for a youngster, and he can
>> get many bikes in the back.
......perhaps this one would "float his boat"....
youtu.be/wZ4X4l56Q1w
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>>>recommend you search for Fenlander's thoughts and writings on this subject. I think he'd pretty much got the whole approach sorted.
>>>Aye, he wrote the definitive guide.
I think my posts were well spread over topics of learning to drive, small cars for a student and insurance costs so not that easy to find... and I'll take that with a pinch of virtual salt Zero!
Over the past three years or so we've not only guided daughter one through this but daughter two has now passed her test and runs her own car... so random thoughts on above posts and our experiences...
Both the girl's driving instructors were very keen on my support in giving extra practice in our car. It does depend though on your personality though. I'm calm, non-competitive and interested in the art of driving so made a worthwhile secondary "instructor". Mrs F on the other hand only went out with daughter one a couple of times because she'd be looking down at her phone most of the time then look up with shouts of panic when she sensed something wasn't going right. If you are an easily excited shouter I'd consider leaving it to the pros.
I was always aware of not teaching "old" habits so would always ask what the instructor had taught for any particular situation and reinforce that... feeding back questions for daughter to ask the instructor if clarification needed.
I was initially keen on dual controls as I wanted to keep as good a safety margin as possible but our insurance co of the time plus one other I asked would not allow that mod to a private car.... as one explained there is an issue with dodgy unlicensed instructors and any request from a private person for dual controls was regarded in that light.
Neither daughter passed first time which fitted in with the majority of their school friends but it didn't take many more lessons for them to pass.
For daughter one we put her on Mrs F's C3 insurance and our company allowed this on a month by month basis at around £25/mth extra on top of the basic policy at around £20/mth.
The C3 was broadly the same size as the Yaris (then Hyundai) her instructor used and I think that's quite important. In Runfer's case I'd wonder if the size and feel of moving from the ususal driving school vehicle to the larger high up Qashqai and back would be distracting?
I'd be tempted to chop it in for something like a middle 2000s Golf/Polo size hatch for practice drives then move it on when he's passed.
The third car to learn in is an option but is likely to cost far more in insurance and add maintenance liability... plus do you really want a third car about on the drive?
For me an old classic to learn in is a total no. It's what I call an aspirational choice which you can let him make when he's earning with his own garage to put it in. If you want something fun for yourself then just buy it without the constraints of it being insurable for him... no need to try and justify it as an "ideal learner car".
A major point about what you do re car changes is if he intends to go to Uni or straight into work?
Daughter one passed her test just a couple of months before going to Uni and we made it clear we were not buying a car to stand on the street near Uni so she was put on Mrs F's 3 insurance when she was home during holidays. This was charged in monthly chunks... but as a full licence holder the monthly extra jumped from around £26 to around £60.
Then in her first summer holiday we realised our rural location made summer work near impossible without own transport so we bought her a great 2003 Polo 1.4 for around £1500 with insurance about £850 on top. The insurance was far cheaper than expected due to her experience as a named driver on Mrs F's C3 and the fact deferring a year made her 19.
The shock came when she went to change her insurance address to Uni when she returned there after the summer... for the car to be registered to her Uni flat was going to be a loading of several hundreds of pounds over it being at home!
This summer she'll have owned the Polo 2yrs and the deal is she pays for fuel, VED & insurance... I still do the services and pay for parts. Her Polo has proved reliable and great to drive.... plus it has met the main objective of allowing her to earn loads in the holidays working in a location that could not be served by public transport.
She has bumped it once... but just a reverse into a pillar and the £200 repair is to be sorted soon.
Daughter two was 17 in summer 2014 and started lessons in the autumn eventually passing her test in 2015. Daughter one had always grumbled the C3 was rubbish for learning in and it was about due for a change however Mrs F wanted a larger engine Golf (or larger) size car which might not have suited a learner so she decided to buy a 2004 Polo just for the learning period. This worked well and now she's free to buy whatever she wants without the worries of a young driver needing to be on the policy.
Daughter two decided not to go to Uni and had substantial savings from weekend work while in 6th form so wanted her own car immediately. She is an independent thinker and eventually shunned the Corsa/Clio club for a very genuine Jazz being sold from two doors away. She bought the car and we paid the insurance plus I carried out a FOC midlife fettle. It's turned out to be a brilliant buy and is such a nice rural run/town car.
Because in buying a car soon after passing the test she had no full licence experience as a named driver... and as she was 18 compared with daughter one being 19 for her first policy (£850) the insurance was way up at £1500+
Sadly she bumped the Jazz quite quickly on her first visit to a multi-storey getting stuck on a concrete pillar and doing more damage reversing off. The repair was £300 but the spray shop were kind in doing a couple of other unrelated minor smart repair areas FOC as they had the paint which would have cost £150 if done stand alone.
It was a quick lesson learned and she has quickly matured into an exceptional driver.
Note: All insurance costs are without black box... I refuse to have one in any car unless it ever becomes law.
Hope there's something interesting to pull out of that lot Runfer!
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>>the insurance was way up at £1500+
Which is quite a bit really. But only three times what many of us pay, and I bet some people pay more than that. (I'm not certain what my insurance is. Something between £300 and £700 I guess.) And as you point out, they're (we were) accident prone at that age.
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>>>the insurance was way up at £1500+
>>>Which is quite a bit really.
Yes that's why she bought the car and we gave her the insurance money. In buying the car herself there is a feeling of ownership pride and achievement but the insurance would have been a fair wack out of her savings with nothing really tangible to show for it.
That's how we thought it through anyway.
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Thanks Fenlander ! Very useful.
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>>size and feel of moving from the ususal driving school vehicle to the larger high up Qashqai and back would be distracting?
Hmm maybe, but speaking from personal experience, I learned on my dad's Volvo 240 but also had half a dozen lessons in a BSM ( old style ) Mini, and then took my test in a car I'd never driven before that day ( mk1 Escort ) because the instructor's Mini wasn't available that day and my father was away on business.
I think all it taught me was that different cars are, well, different, but in principle exactly the same.
Eg of course the size of them but also where the controls are, the feel of the clutch and gearbox etc. But, ultimately they can be made to stop, go and steer using the same inputs.
I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
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>>>I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
Yes well that's what I did too but from observing my girls they were far more easily put off by differences in the ease (or not) of stalling between diesel/petrol and the different takeup points of the clutch etc.
The test has become much more "technical" since our day with it being so easy to fail on something that's far from unsafe. I just wanted their learning experience to be as similar as possible from car to car.
Interestingly daughter two (the one who is turning into a proper driver) can't wait to get insured on the BMW for some dissimilar vehicle experience. We'll see what my ins co say on renewal but she might have to wait another year.
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>> I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
Its not, really its not. You learnt to pass the test. Anything else is an unwanted distraction. Its not the same test or driving conditions that it was in your day.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 9 Feb 16 at 14:44
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>> >> I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
>> Its not, really its not. You learnt to pass the test.
It was with me. But I am one of the small minority that actually likes and understands cars. In my case it was the driving test that was the unwanted distraction. I passed on my third attempt having driven like a normal human being the first two times, instead of a quaking terrified learner.
Eventually I got a young sympathetic instructor who made me understand that the driving test in my case involved a bit of theatre including exaggerated mimsing.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 9 Feb 16 at 15:11
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>> >> I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
>>
>> Its not, really its not. You learnt to pass the test.
>> Anything else is an unwanted distraction.
.
>>
I agree with avoid unwanted distractions.
All the decades ago when I took my tests I was presented with a distraction and was not amused.
I had been learning with a lady instructor but the boss took me for the pre test drive.
" Why are you not changing down to first?"
Bemused I said I had not been taught to.
This car has a synchromesh first gear so you should be using it!
What a prawn instructing a new method minutes before the test.
>> Its not the same test or driving conditions that it was in your day.
>>
I failed my first test by overtaking parked cars too close in an urban area.
" You must leave three feet clearance"
One question was "what are guard rails ?"
No one else seemed to know the answer!
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>> >>
>> >> I think it was healthy in a way to learn on different sized cars.
>>
>>
>> Its not, really its not. You learnt to pass the test. Anything else is an
>> unwanted distraction. Its not the same test or driving conditions that it was in your day.
I had lessons in my instructors Nova (?) and did endless miles in my father's Montego. If you could drive the Montego (no PAS, big thing) then the Nova was a doddle. Definitely a Good Thing. A bit like athletes training in the Alps where the air is thin.
I must say I think that if somebody has never driven a car other than their instructor's they haven't passed the driving test at all. There has always been the difference between those who learn to pass and those who learn to drive.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 9 Feb 16 at 15:58
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>>I must say I think that if somebody has never driven a car other than their instructor's they haven't passed the driving test at all.
There has always been the difference between those who learn to pass and those who learn to drive.
I tend to agree with you.
In my case I had no option but the instructors car.
No friends relations or anyone who owned a car so nothing to practice in.
I had 9 hours total prior to failing first time, then four more hours to pass.
So I had my ticket and could add to my CV. I had no other plans at that time so licence went in a drawer.
12 months later I was valid to hire a car ( how things have changed ?) so I did. After a Viva a Vauxhall Victor 101estate with three on a tree stirring porage was almost a challenge too far!!!
Eventually after driving hundreds of miles in Cyprus on holiday I felt OK on UK roads.
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Well, I think we might have reached a decision on all the above. Thanks again for all the helpful advice everyone. I think, rather than swop out my wife's car for a smaller more insurance friendly one for learner purposes, that we'll now quietly start looking into sourcing a sound but cheap learner car specifically for the purpose.
Something that wouldn't cause too much financial pain if he wrecks the clutch or gets a bit too close to a gatepost. Thinking C1/107/Aygo probably. But it'll be more about keeping an eye open for a suitable bargain rather than being too locked into models.
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Agree Humph - at that age you are best to try and get a car that is recommended for whatever reason.
My daughter got money for a car on her 18th birthday but was quite hapy to just drive the wife's Beetle and then Fiesta when she needed a car.
Then my sister was selling her Aygo that she had owned from ne so daughter bought that as knew the history etc etc
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Learner - what to do. - bathtub tom
