Eye opener at work yesterday when I was doing telephone advice.
Client's car (an 06 Toyota Yaris) had been clamped by a bailiff. Not her debt but that of her adult son who lived with her - a Mags court fine. Bailiff wouldn't remove clamp until she proved car was hers. V5 and insurance in her name (and no, he's not a permitted driver) plus recall etc notices from Toyota.
Bailiff says V5 not worth paper it's written on and wants to see bill of sale for car or proof of payments to finance company. She's not got bill/receipt as car was cash purchase for repaired write off at <£1k.
In those circs could you prove you own your car?
Gave client next steps suggestions about her options and had row with bailiff who 'didn't like my attitude'.
As ever with these things outcome will be a mystery unless she seeks further advice.
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How did he know the car was even associated with the address? Parked outside on the road and it could belong to anyone.
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>> How did he know the car was even associated with the address? Parked outside on
>> the road and it could belong to anyone.
Parked on the driveway.
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This is often portrayed on "The Sherriff is Coming" type programmes and that is the way that they seem to work. Seems totally unfair to me - I would expect them to have to prove that the debtor owns the goods, not the other way round, but that's clearly not the case.
I don't have receipts for >90% of what is in my house (lost in moves etc. or just faded with time), some of it for quite valuable stuff so I suppose a wayward child running up bills could cause problems.
I suppose withdrawal of a large sum from a bank account on or about the time of purchase could provide a reasonable link to likely ownership.
Insurance usually asks you if you are the owner. If you have insurance for the car then that would be effective "evidence" to most reasonable people as would service or repair bills.
What's to stop an estranged family member running up bills and claiming they live at your address - potentially putting you right in the lurch?
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A quick recorded delivery letter to the debt collector
1) Debt is no mine
2) Car is registered & insured in owner's name (copies included)- already shown to
the clampers.
3) Clamp to be removed immediately
4) As of 48 hours she will be hiring a car if the clamp is not removed & claiming from them.
5) She is speaking to a Lawyer on Monday about harassment claim, damages for inconvenience, stress..........+ any more you can think of.
If that fails, pay the fine & have their day in court.
40 years ago I had letter from Electricity Board for non payment. I had paid & had the receipt.
They threatened to break-in to disconnect the meter. I wanted to stand behind the door & allow them to break in - produce their receipted bill & sue.......my wife thought differently & we went
to their High St shop & sorted it.
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>>we went
to their High St shop & sorted it.
was that the good old days of the SSEB?
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I think the problem is that debtors lie.
Yes, I realise that is hard to believe, but, ironically, it's the truth. I am quite a fan of the 'Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away', type of programmes, much to Lady Duncan's disgust.
Interesting to see how often people deny that they are the debtor, only to be shown to be lying. The bailiffs can't accept anyone's word.
Can I lay my hand on the original sales receipts for my cars? Or any other bit of kit in the house?Not quickly, no.
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Most of these are private companies with targets and profits to think of. From some experience of the way some of their employees work they have little regard for asking too many questions and establishing facts. CPWTIA is a PR job, they wheel out the ones with diplomatic skills and some morality about them. I have a friend who went to work for one of these contractors (contracted to various local councils to recover Council Tax arrears) He's a genuine bloke, not afraid of hard work - but didn't like or approve of their methods and chucked it in.
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>> Most of these are private companies with targets and profits to think of. From some
>> experience of the way some of their employees work they have little regard for asking
>> too many questions and establishing facts. CPWTIA is a PR job, they wheel out the
>> ones with diplomatic skills and some morality about them. I have a friend who went
>> to work for one of these contractors (contracted to various local councils to recover Council
>> Tax arrears) He's a genuine bloke, not afraid of hard work - but didn't like
>> or approve of their methods and chucked it in.
That summarises my experience Rob. People on benefits who are vulnerable are regularly intimidated into instalment offers equal to half their income. They're set up to fail and when they do Johnny Bailiff goes back and adds an other set of fees to the debt.
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>> CPWTIA is a PR job,
>>
I don't doubt you are right.
However, my sympathy is with the person who is owed the money, not the debtor. From the days when I had my own business, I know that chasing up up slow payers is a nightmare.
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I think the small claims process is a proper and worthy one (having recently availed myself of it on two occasions and given the defendant something to think about) - I would separate that from, in particular, Local Authority claims. These should be managed in house like they used to be, that comes from experiences of dealing with one excellent LA Council Tax recovery team, whose chosen contractors were awful
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Sounds like a load of cock and bull to me. I rather think you were not hearing the whole story. As for.V 5 it states quite clearly in big letters at the top that it is not proof of ownership. Who does not keep a receipt for a car? Really?
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>> Sounds like a load of cock and bull to me. I rather think you were
>> not hearing the whole story. As for.V 5 it states quite clearly in big letters
>> at the top that it is not proof of ownership. Who does not keep a
>> receipt for a car? Really?
We get cock/bull stuff all the time. If I had a pound for everyone who swears they knew nothing about a council parking ticket until the debt collector arrived I could pay the fine for the next one.
This lady struck me as genuine.
I spoke to the Bailiff so I got the stuff about not accepting the V5 at first hand.
There was a second string to her case in that she was a domiciliary carer and needed the car for her work. Because it is worth less than £1350 it is likely to be 'exempt goods' per the relevant regulations. He wasn't prepared to accept that either, telling me that the exempt goods provisions only applied to the self employed (and that I should know that!).
My own theory is that this sort of thing often goes on because they hope Mum will pay.
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A lack of logic here.
It’s either her car or it is her son’s
If it her car it cannot be seized. If she really has no receipt I’m sure a a letter obtained from the seller to would be acceptable to a court as proof of ownership.
If it is his car what she needs for her work is irrelevant.
Most likely scenario is that her son has told her what to say. It’s hardly come out of the blue has it.
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>> If it her car it cannot be seized. If she really has no receipt I’m
>> sure a a letter obtained from the seller to would be acceptable to a court
>> as proof of ownership.
Your first sentence is spot on. She has V5 in her name. She has insurance in her name. I can lay my hand on invoices for both our cars and probably the previous two as well. They were however bought from franchised dealers and in three cases new. Nowadays I have an organised domestic filing system but certainly didn't always. I very much doubt that, three years down the road, I could have found receipt for a car I bought privately.
If she went to court on an 'interpleader' I suspect the judge would find the V5 highly persuasive of ownership and, together with other documents, conclusive. But that takes time. Bailiff knows she's on a zero hour contract and hopes she will pay up to, as it were, cut her losses.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 9 Dec 17 at 10:21
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Who does not keep a
>> receipt for a car? Really?
>>
>>
>>
Most people I'd say don't bother keeping the receipt. I've got mine in a folder with car stuff.
Mind you receipts don't always prove much, I'm not sure mine has my name on it.
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>> Mind you receipts don't always prove much, I'm not sure mine has my name on
>> it.
>>
We keep a ring binder with plastic A4 inserts for each car: holds original advert for car, invoice for it.. MOTs, insurance, bills etc..Makes losing thing far less likely and proof of ownership simple..She who owns the car pays the bills.. er..not always errr never:-)
We keep all receipts for non food items in an A4 file and occasional throw out the old ones where we have scrapped/sold/broken the item. Our 1972 Kenwood Chefette was 40 years out of warranty when the food shredder failed....
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Dec 17 at 20:33
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>> Sounds like a load of cock and bull to me. I rather think you were
>> not hearing the whole story. As for.V 5 it states quite clearly in big letters
>> at the top that it is not proof of ownership. Who does not keep a
>> receipt for a car? Really?
>>
I don’t have a recipt for the old Audi convertible I bought from eBay. It was only £536 though, and currently sorned with no MOT. So good luck to anyone who tries to take it :)
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>>Who does not keep a receipt for a car? Really?
For a fairly recent purchase from a dealer of some sort, then maybe you would. For a private purchase, possibly for cash.... I bet a lot would not have a receipt.
If someone clamped 'my car' then I couldn't prove I owned it because I don't. It belongs to Arval.
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I recall reading somewhere that a house is one of the few physical things that require specific documentation to transfer ownership, and that everything else is normally only owned by presumption. Being in possession of something and using it as if yours is a rebuttable presumption that it is legally yours.
I take that to mean that it is legally yours unless someone comes along with a better, provable claim. If that is true then the onus would be on the baliff to prove that his "customer", the son, was the owner, not the person using it, keeping it in her car park, and possessing the keys, the V5 and other documentation relating to it.
Or is there some legal dispensation for a court baliff to help himself to anything he fancies just by pointing to it and demanding it?
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>> Or is there some legal dispensation for a court baliff to help himself to anything
>> he fancies just by pointing to it and demanding it?
If it is in your possession or your house or on your land, it is not unreasonable to assume you own it. If it belongs to someone else, - eg hired or leased, then the owner can show title by legal documents. If it is a car, then a few receipts for work done and insurance papers usually will act as backup top ownership claims.
I don't recall Bromp making any comment on insurance documents: in my view if the car is owned by anyone, then if in use it should be insured. I assume the owner could use those as proof.
The fact that no mention has been made of them - to my recall speed reading - suggests it is 1. not insured or 2. insured by the house dweller so a proof of the wrong ownership so never mentioned..
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Dec 17 at 20:32
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>> I don't recall Bromp making any comment on insurance documents: in my view if the
>> car is owned by anyone, then if in use it should be insured. I assume
>> the owner could use those as proof.
I mentioned insurance in the OP and again at 10:19 today.
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>>On the drive.
Make me think that I won't be renting that drive from the house near the station.
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>>>>Who does not keep a receipt for a car?
Dont know if it still the case but up to very recently, if you bought anything out of Arnold Clark, you got a small rectangular handwritten receipt which came out a carbonised bulk receipt book with each one individually numbered.
Whether it be a car for £15k or a set of mats, you got one of these receipts (as well as your standard credit card slip)
I remember querying it with a service manager once and basically being told this was one element that AC had always done and no one was ever going to change it!
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>> Who does not keep a receipt for a car? Really?
Me. Couldn't find a receipt for any car I own if I tried.
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>> Eye opener at work yesterday when I was doing telephone advice.
>> In those circs could you prove you own your car?
>>
Yep, I still have the receipted sale invoice , with the card payment slip stapled to it!
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>> >> In those circs could you prove you own your car?
I can prove i dont own my car. Insurance means nothing, I have insured it, I am the registered keeper, but i dont own it.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 9 Dec 17 at 22:54
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Purely academic, but I'd be on shaky ground trying to prove that I technically own our i10 .
We bought it on the scrappage scheme using wifey's old Punto as the scrap car, so it's registered to her, and the bill of sale is in her name; she insures it with me as a named driver but it was my money which paid for it.
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I'd say it was pretty simple. It's not your car. She paid the dealer for it and therefore it's her car. Where the money came from is irrelevant.
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>> I'd say it was pretty simple. It's not your car. She paid the dealer for
>> it and therefore it's her car. Where the money came from is irrelevant.
>>
You can gift a car, as just about anything except a house, simply by saying "I give you this".
Even a gesture, or the facts of use or day to day responsibility would I think be sufficient in the absense of any assertion from the donor to the contrary.
As another example, most household items, unless valuable enough to be individually specified, pass by inheritance with no formality whatsoever. Even a house, if owned as joint tenants, passes to a survivor without necessarily a will, as does a joint bank account.
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For historical reasons, to do with the non-avavilability of NCD on a motor trade policy in my name, my wife has owned, taxed and insured all our cars since 1992.
I have always been a named driver.
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most of them unprintable.
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BMW Finance have a lovely online portal which shows full details of the finance agreement, including payment history, my name and address, and the car model, colour and VIN details. 30 seconds on the internet would sort it.
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Own Your Car? Can You Prove It? - rtj70
