Non-motoring > Islamist school agenda - Volume 1   [Read only]	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Westpig	Replies: 114

New Tue 22 Jul 14 17:39   Islamist school agenda - Volume 1 - Westpig

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 2 ***** Wonder how it will now be dealt with? www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-28419901 IMO the softly softly approach does not and will never work Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 Aug 14 at 10:20       1

New Tue 22 Jul 14 18:27   Islamist school agenda - Roger.

..............and here, too. tinyurl.com/ljcsy6j

New Tue 22 Jul 14 20:51   Islamist school agenda - Bromptonaut

But how do we respond when the shared ideology driving a 'conservative' education is Catholic or Jewish? Because if we allow this stuff then it looks a bit odd when we panic about Islam.       1

New Tue 22 Jul 14 20:59   Islamist school agenda - No FM2R

Outrageous, trying to orient schools to a particular religion. Have you seen this particular organisation promoting similar behaviour all over the world... www.csionline.org/home Presumably, since there's no ignorance, bigotry or prejudice involved in the thoughtful, educated postings here, you are all similarly outraged by all such organisations? Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 22 Jul 14 at 20:59       1

New Tue 22 Jul 14 22:16   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> Outrageous, trying to orient schools to a particular religion. It is in the manner that it has been done. Yes. >> >> Have you seen this particular organisation promoting similar behaviour all over the world... >> >> www.csionline.org/home No. Not until now, but I am aware that most religions like to sell their own product. >> >> Presumably, since there's no ignorance, bigotry or prejudice involved in the thoughtful, educated postings here, All in your opinion of course. >> you are all similarly outraged by all such organisations? No I am not, but I would be if they all acted in the same manner.       2

New Tue 22 Jul 14 22:40   Islamist school agenda - Roger.

There are too many useful fools being apologists for militant Islam.       6

New Tue 22 Jul 14 23:21   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

Funny. I think I posted something in this thread earlier, which has now vanished. Not the first time recently. If it happens once more I'm away. Just damn cheek, that.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 05:46   Islamist school agenda - smokie

Can't see any evidence of an edit...

New Wed 23 Jul 14 06:11   Islamist school agenda - Duncan

>> Funny. I think I posted something in this thread earlier, which has now vanished. >> >> Not the first time recently. If it happens once more I'm away. Just damn cheek, >> that. Would that be a temporary flouncette, a major flounce, or a 'grand depart'? (Sorry, I can't do italics) Because much as you sometimes irritate me, AC, I still enjoy reading your posts and I wouldn't like you to leave permanently.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 07:59   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

I can think of two reasons for a recuring belief that one's posts keep getting lost. One is that there is a conspiracy to silence the voice of truth, the other is that ... I can't remember what I ws going to say, .. um .. my memory's getting terrible these days ...

New Wed 23 Jul 14 13:05   Islamist school agenda - VxFan

>> Funny. I think I posted something in this thread earlier, which has now vanished. Not me, but I'll still get the blame. If I remember (when I get home) I'll see if I've still got yesterdays RSS Forum Feeds to see if you did post something here.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 13:23   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> Not me, but I'll still get the blame. Perhaps it never happened. I sleep badly and the comic said today that could lead to false memories. In any case, although it's very annoying when that happens, or when one thinks it does, late-night flouncing threats are liable just to pop out drunkenly. It would take a fair amount to make me actually flounce.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 13:30   Islamist school agenda - Focusless

>> >> Not me, but I'll still get the blame. >> >> Perhaps it never happened. You're not by any chance thinking of your post in the Malaysian Airlines thread - "Money and idiots, the latter never in short supply"? www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?m=393055&v=e Last edited by: Focusless on Wed 23 Jul 14 at 13:31

New Wed 23 Jul 14 19:21   Islamist school agenda - VxFan

>> If I remember (when I get home) I'll see if I've still got yesterdays RSS >> Forum Feeds to see if you did post something here. Well according to the feeds I have, you posted 3 times in the Malaysian Airline Shot Down! thread, 17:38, 18:50, & 20:50, and later in this thread (@ 23:21) to complain about a possible disappearing post. In short, nothing got deleted that I can see.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 19:46   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> nothing got deleted that I can see. So, covered in slight shame again. Damn.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 08:15   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> Presumably, since there's no ignorance, bigotry or prejudice involved in the thoughtful, educated postings here, >> you are all similarly outraged by all such organisations? ...and of course, it's this sort of viewpoint that has got Birmingham Council into the pickle they are now in. No one was comfortable in sticking their head up above the parapet to confront what needed confronting for fear of being labelled ignorant, bigoted or prejudiced.       2

New Wed 23 Jul 14 09:40   Islamist school agenda - madf

Birmingham has a long history of council incompetence. It's not only schools: social services and child protection are a real headache. Children’s services at Birmingham City Council could be taken over by the Government by the end of the year, amid heightened pressure from inspectors. Experts say the beleaguered department, which has been ranked “inadequate” by Ofsted for four successive years, is not being given a chance to improve. The watchdog will be returning to inspect it later this month and the department’s head is expecting the worst tinyurl.com/k52m47e Last edited by: madf on Wed 23 Jul 14 at 09:41

New Wed 23 Jul 14 11:52   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>> Outrageous, trying to orient schools to a particular religion. >> >> Have you seen this particular organisation promoting similar behaviour all over the world... >> >> www.csionline.org/home >> >> Presumably, since there's no ignorance, bigotry or prejudice involved in the thoughtful, educated postings here, >> you are all similarly outraged by all such organisations? You put up a straw man, and imply that if that is OK then so are the schools in Birmingham. You characterise people drawing attention to an acknowledged issue as being outraged. You give them a choice of agreeing with you or being called ignorant, bigoted and prejudiced. I don't know anything about Christian Schools International. Perhaps they are as WP says just promoting their own brand of religious belief in the evangelical tradition. I neither approve nor disapprove of that. But if CSI were to - target particular schools in a "coordinated, deliberate and sustained" way, - seek to introduce an "intolerant and aggressive [insert brand of religion] ethos", - try to get their members on to governing bodies so as to secure the appointment of "'sympathetic' head teachers and senior staff, appointing 'like- minded' people to key positions and removing heads who were not 'compliant' with a particular agenda", - remove lessons in humanities, arts and music - oppose "whole school activities and wider experiences" - "[insist] on an "Islamic approach" to subjects ranging from science to Personal, Social and Health Education." - encourage young people "adopt an unquestioning attitude to a particular hardline strand of [insert religion]" then yes, I would be opposed to it (or outraged, as you call it). Remember, these are not 'faith schools' - they are just state schools; but if they were, there would still be no good reason for society as a whole to countenance training of young people to reject tolerance and diversity. Just in case it isn't clear, my point is that it is not those opposed to what is happening in Birmingham who object to tolerance and diversity. It is the hardline infiltrators, if Peter Clarke's review is being reported truthfully.       6

New Mon 28 Jul 14 14:57   Islamist school agenda - car4play

Ok. I'm on hols but have had to log in here to take a look at stuff that has been drawn to my attention. Firstly. Mark, I think you make great contributions. Your writing is often good and thought-provoking. I also understand that on topics such as religion and politics we can all get very passionate. However, in this instance I believe, as others have stated, that the freedom we enjoy here also comes from the boundaries which we all observe. I tried to set these out in the house rules. Reading some of the content in your posts I'm sure you will agree with me does tread over what we set out as acceptable. Eg. "Which is why bigots and racists, such as yourself, bother me so much. You are appalling human beings. " Now whoever that was directed to might be all those things, and they certainly are in your eyes, but our deal here was that we never say such things. I have hidden the first post of yours where this particular comment was made and this has had the effect of hiding everything linked below it. I trust that you take this in a constructive manner and continue to offer your valuable insights etc. but take on the added challenge to do so in a manners befitting our rules here.       6

New Mon 28 Jul 14 15:55   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

I reckon you need to have a think about the rules then. NF is right - racist and bigoted comment sometimes goes unmoderated here, and yet spades may not be called spades according to the rules. I thought that plain speaking and straight talking was much lauded and indeed promoted by those who wish to make racist and bigoted statements, now foul is cried when they're called on it. This is not pleasant. Seems being called a racist and a bigot is a worse crime than actually being one. Poor form. Continued presence on forum duly being considered.       1

New Mon 28 Jul 14 16:29   Islamist school agenda - Pat

Hang on a minute Alanovic, let's think this through before a flounce:) Definitions: Racist 1The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism 1.1Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior: a programme to combat racism Bigot A person who is bigoted: religious bigot she was a fanatical bigot More example sentences • He's out to put religious bigots in the same moral and legal bracket as racists. • Justice and decency were the very things the religious bigots of all denominations hated and feared most, as they still do today. • One inflammatory bumper sticker alleges the religious right are bigots, among other things. Synonyms dogmatist, partisan, sectarian, prejudiced person; racist, racialist, sexist, homophobe, chauvinist, jingoist, anti-Semite So now lets look at it this way. Being a racist or a bigot is not proven by any means Being called a racist and a bigot is just one persons opinion and does not represent all of us. That is why it's against ALL forums rules. Looking at it that way, it makes sense, doesn't it? Pat       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 09:37   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> Looking at it that way, it makes sense, doesn't it? No. Life is not a dictionary. There are racists and bigots, there are plainly some posting on this board. But we're not allowed to point out the obvious, to challenge these repugnant views, to call these people for what they are. And yet their remarks and comments stand. No, it doesn't make any more sense.       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 10:38   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>> >> Looking at it that way, it makes sense, doesn't it? >> >> No. Life is not a dictionary. There are racists and bigots, there are plainly some >> posting on this board. >> >> But we're not allowed to point out the obvious, to challenge these repugnant views, to >> call these people for what they are. And yet their remarks and comments stand. >> >> No, it doesn't make any more sense. What rubbish. Of course you can challenge any view. What "obvious" point do you want to make? Why do you think you are censored? It's more the case that anybody with a legitimate concern about the "Trojan Horse" conspiracy, if there is such a thing, has to self-censor or risk being smeared by association with those jumping on the bandwagon as a vehicle for their racist views - which will inevitably happen. I will tolerate any religious belief - don't you just ridicule it? Or is that just Christianity? Your post as it stands is no better than FM's vile calumnies. He gave no rationale at all, except to claim to know what somebody (Roger, presumably) thinks. Is that where you are coming from? Why not comment on the original topic of the thread? Point out why it is no more than a racism-motivated campaign if that is what you think? Sorry, but people who come out with comments like yours above are part of the problem. Now, explain properly please - substantiate your accusation or apologise.       3

New Tue 29 Jul 14 10:57   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> substantiate your accusation I can't, it's not allowed on here. NF has already been censored for what he thinks to be true. Anything I say will be removed also as we're not allowed to be "rude" to someone. The fact that rudeness and patronising guff flow in torrents from one particular poster in Sussex when he disagrees with someone is accepted, however. Roger you mention? well, yes, I'd go along with NF's feelings about that poster but I'm not allowed to say it. But he's not the worst example on here. >> or apologise. No. I don't think you are "one" anyway, so I owe you no apology. I have not accused you of anything so far as I remember. But you ask me to make my feelings on the original topic known, so I will. It's a b***** disgrace what happened in Birmingham, and we should deal with it and all future possible similar cases by removing all association between religious organisations and schools. Like in France. Religion has no place in the governance of a modern country and particularly its education system. Disestablish the Church, remove the Monarchy, replace the Lords, sort all this outdated rubbish out once and for all. Happy? Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 29 Jul 14 at 10:58       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 11:04   Islamist school agenda - sherlock47

>>and all future possible similar cases by removing all association between religious organisations and schools. Like in France.<< This reflects what I said in an earlier post, and which received some support. It was lost in the mass deletion hysteria. I also supported NFM2R as generally making well informed contributions - even though I do not always agree 100%. A valuable member of the Forum who we do not wish (or need ) to lose.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 18:48   Islamist school agenda - car4play

>> mass deletion hysteria You lose credibility when you use loaded language like this. I simply hid the ONE post which contained the remarks I quoted which infringed our house rules. As I stated this has the effect of removing every post linked to it. I wrote the software. That's just what it does and always has done. And you call this hysteria? Actually this is ok in my book too because I understand that our opinions are actually formed from emotional experiences and not hard facts alone despite what we might like to think.       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 19:03   Islamist school agenda - sherlock47

>> >> mass deletion hysteria >> >> You lose credibility when you use loaded language like this. >> I simply hid the ONE post which contained the remarks I quoted which infringed our >> house rules. >> As I stated this has the effect of removing every post linked to it. >> I wrote the software. That's just what it does and always has done. >> And you call this hysteria? >> sloppy writing - I should have said " mass hysteria and deletion"

New Tue 29 Jul 14 19:18   Islamist school agenda - car4play

Ah ok. Understood. Apologies.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 12:09   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>> >> substantiate your accusation >> >> I can't, it's not allowed on here. NF has already been censored for what he >> thinks to be true. Anything I say will be removed also as we're not allowed >> to be "rude" to someone. The fact that rudeness and patronising guff flow in torrents >> from one particular poster in Sussex when he disagrees with someone is accepted, however. Roger >> you mention? well, yes, I'd go along with NF's feelings about that poster but I'm >> not allowed to say it. But he's not the worst example on here. I'm having to read between the lines here. There are people at large who have racist attitudes and don't express them directly, but cloak them with other reasons for their objections to this, that or the other (e.g. supposed concern about immigration numbers, or 'outrage' at the Trojan Horse story)? Not good enough for an accusation unfortunately. It's a put up or shut up position. For what it's worth, I've never seen 'racism' as an absolutely binary trait. I have been lambasted before for saying that I think we are all somewhere on that spectrum - perfection is just not possible. But I think I know racism when I see it. Occasionally I see something here that makes me twitch, but that's about it, and I don't even see that in this thread. Yes there is low-level and casual, unconscious even, racism throughout society that is insidious and perpetuates inequality. I am convinced that is declining and will continue to do so. But there are some very nasty racists and religious bigots out there, and it does the cause no service at all to jump on every slightly 'off' or clumsy comment, or momentary glimpse of an old fashioned attitude. We can't help what we feel, our instincts. But we can think about them and decide how we behave, and that is what counts. >> >> >> or apologise. >> >> No. I don't think you are "one" anyway, so I owe you no apology. I >> have not accused you of anything so far as I remember. Fair enough. I hope you don't change your mind after the above stream of consciousness. >> But you ask me to make my feelings on the original topic known, so I >> will. It's a b***** disgrace what happened in Birmingham, and we should deal with it >> and all future possible similar cases by removing all association between religious organisations and schools. >> Like in France. Religion has no place in the governance of a modern country and >> particularly its education system. Disestablish the Church, I think I have said as much myself. >> remove the Monarchy, replace the Lords, sort all >> this outdated rubbish out once and for all. I'd leave those for now - I'd hate to think that all we had were venal politicians! >> Happy? I think so - though it might be dangerous to think I understand your position when I made up the answer myself:)       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 13:46   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> The fact that rudeness and patronising guff flow in torrents >> from one particular poster in Sussex when he disagrees with someone is accepted, however. >> Roger >> you mention? well, yes, I'd go along with NF's feelings about that poster but I'm >> not allowed to say it. But he's not the worst example on here. This is all very mysterious Alanović. I thought you favoured talking, er, turkey. >> Religion has no place in the governance of a modern country and >> particularly its education system. Disestablish the Church, etc.. It's utterly ludicrous to call this a 'modern country'. It's nothing of the sort, and abolishing all those things won't make it more modern. It will just confuse it. You and FMR both have this delusion that it can be made rational. It can't.       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 14:01   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> I thought you favoured talking, er, turkey. Turkey seems to be off the menu.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:00   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> >> >> remove the Monarchy, replace the Lords, sort all >> >> this outdated rubbish out once and for all. >> >> I'd leave those for now - I'd hate to think that all we had were >> venal politicians! How do we propose to disestablish the church whilst leaving it's head as Head of State? Some kind of "Disestablishment Light"? Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 09:00

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:37   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>> >> >> >> >> remove the Monarchy, replace the Lords, sort all >> >> >> this outdated rubbish out once and for all. >> >> >> >> I'd leave those for now - I'd hate to think that all we had >> were >> >> venal politicians! >> >> How do we propose to disestablish the church whilst leaving it's head as Head of >> State? Some kind of "Disestablishment Light"? Good idea. Your willingness to compromise does you credit. Those die-in-ditch republicans just can't see that it's far more democratic to have s ceremonial monarchy than to dictate to everyone else that they must get rid of it;)

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:48   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

Nice try.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 12:27   Islamist school agenda - Focusless

>> >> substantiate your accusation >> >> I can't, it's not allowed on here. NF has already been censored for what he >> thinks to be true. Anything I say will be removed also as we're not allowed >> to be "rude" to someone. I don't get that bit. AFAIK it's fine for anyone to point out that something someone has said sounds racist, with an explanation, and that can be done without being 'rude'. It's the 'you are a racist' without substantiation that's is the problem, isn't it? Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 29 Jul 14 at 12:28

New Tue 29 Jul 14 12:41   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> AFAIK it's fine for anyone to point out that something >> someone has said sounds racist, with an explanation, and that can be done without being >> 'rude'. It's the 'you are a racist' without substantiation that's is the problem, isn't it? >> I struggle with the difference, when we're talking about people who make similar comments perpetually. "Sounds a bit racist" wears thin after a few dozen uses. Then perhaps stronger terminology and a more blunt manner are called for and justifiable.       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 12:52   Islamist school agenda - Focusless

Ok, I see what you're saying.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 18:31   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> I struggle with the difference, when we're talking about people who make similar comments perpetually. >> "Sounds a bit racist" wears thin after a few dozen uses. Then perhaps stronger terminology >> and a more blunt manner are called for and justifiable. >> Can you give an example, you've lost me.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 16:30   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

Oh, come off it Alanovic. That's just stirring. There wasn't an argument there from 'FM' at all, and it was obvious from his first post what tack he was taking, and he did. No contribution from you either, save apparently agreeing with FM. Did he respond to my reply before (presumably) including me in his general accusation of cowardice, small-mindedness, racism and bigotry? Not at all. I set out in a carefully written and polite reply this morning, in which I acknowledged that he is capable of wise and helpful posts, how FM had used only invective and logical fallacy in making and justifying his comments without a single proper comment on the topic. I have far more reason to flounce and every inclination to do so, but I won't when one person is the problem. FM (whom I am not too cowardly to address directly on this, I just no longer see the point) has got off very lightly. Half of what he said would get him banned just about anywhere else. Carry on.       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 09:39   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> one person is the problem. There's more than one, and, on this subject, it ain't NF.       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 19:30   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> one person is the problem. >> >> There's more than one, and, on this subject, it ain't NF. What is this imaginary problem allegedly caused by some unnamed individual? When I can't (or don't want to) cope directly with someone's discourse here, I just rabbit round it, easy peasy. Or even stay shtum. What is this 'problem'?       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 20:09   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> >> one person is the problem. >> >> >> >> There's more than one, and, on this subject, it ain't NF. >> >> What is this imaginary problem allegedly caused by some unnamed individual? >> What is this 'problem'? >> I'd quite like to know as well.       2

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:02   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> I'd quite like to know as well. >> Why are you asking me to break forum rules, as clearly laid out in this thread by the site manager? I'm not allowed to say who I think is a racist on here. NF wasn't, neither would I be. Don't criticise me for following the forum rules.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:30   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> Why are you asking me to break forum rules, as clearly laid out in this >> thread by the site manager? I'm not allowed to say who I think is a >> racist on here. NF wasn't, neither would I be. >> >> Don't criticise me for following the forum rules. >> I'm not asking you to break forum rules. I had a conversation in the past with NoFM2R where I asked him outright if by my thoughts, plain speaking and sometimes speaking the unpalatable when it came to subjects including race.... whether or not he considered I was racist. He replied in the negative....... however if he'd replied in the positive, I don't think he would have been breaking forum rules, because it was a polite enough chat between two members of the site, two people who have often opposing views and it was a balanced, informed, polite reply. Others have said in the past that a particular viewpoint troubles them and maybe verges on racism (my wording, not theirs) .. well if that's how they feel and they are polite enough, so be it.. and if someone like me thinks they are wrong and wishes to post why, then off I go. I see no reason why you could not do the same. If I'm honest, your oblique remarks has got me wondering if that includes me, because I can't think of anyone else other than Roger who's had recent stick, although maybe Manatee.. if that were to be so, I'd be saying I think I and people like me are realists, someone willing to challenge anything that I think isn't 'right', including those areas that include race (areas that many think to be too troublesome to speak about).. but 'no' not a racist. Please clarify.       8

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:51   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

I do not think you are a racist, WP. OK? I'm touched you worry so much what I might think.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 12:25   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> I do not think you are a racist, WP. >> >> OK? >> >> I'm touched you worry so much what I might think. >> Funnily enough, I'm not that worried by what you think, however if you'd replied in the affirmative, I would have asked why you thought that? I can only assume someone's awarded you a frowny for the potential lack of sincerity in the post.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 12:38   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> Funnily enough, I'm not that worried by what you think Why the insistence on following it up then? I never implied that you personally were anything of the sort, and yet you evidently thought my comment in combination with your views expressed on here were cause enough for concern that someone might think you racist. I'm not naming names on who I do think qualifies, as I'm not allowed to, as it would be considered rude, and that's outside the forum rules apparently. I'll continue to address further contributions I fell worthy of opposition, however, and I'll try to remain as polite as possible under the circumstances, as requested, when they inevitably rear their head again and are allowed to pass by the site moderators. >> I can only assume someone's awarded you a frowny for the potential lack of sincerity >> in the post. >> Hey ho. Raspberry to whoever it was.       1

New Wed 30 Jul 14 16:00   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> >> Funnily enough, I'm not that worried by what you think >> >> Why the insistence on following it up then? So that I might understand a viewpoint that I currently cannot fathom .. and refute an unpleasant allegation if it were to have been sent my way (although I still have no idea if it was or not). I never implied that you personally were >> anything of the sort, and yet you evidently thought my comment in combination with your >> views expressed on here were cause enough for concern that someone might think you racist. Yes, near enough, only because I can't work out who you mean and there's been very few people banging on about things from an opposing viewpojnt to you and NoFM2R... and I have been doing that..... I would though be surprised if you meant me.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 16:04   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> Yes, near enough, only because I can't work out who you mean I'm not allowed to say, but the person on this forum I consider to have made the most racist comments (and I truly believe this person to be one, and he'd probably be quite proud of it anyway) hasn't contributed to this thread. So relax.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 16:44   Islamist school agenda - Pat

>>and he'd probably be quite proud << Well at least it isn't me:) Pat

New Mon 28 Jul 14 16:30   Islamist school agenda - car4play

>> Seems being called a racist and a bigot is a worse crime than actually being one The manner in which a point is made is what matters. Yes. Absolutely. It does in real life and it does so here. Remember they are only bigoted or racists in the poster's eyes. Your statement assumes that there is an absolute truth that should be said no matter what. But even if there is a very high probability that it really is truth, the manner in which it is delivered really matters. Eg. If your close friend is overweight and could do with a diet, would it be most productive to tell them they are fat? I mean they might be that way because they feel rubbish about themselves anyway, so name calling (even if based on truth) isn't going to help them. And none of this denies the ability for straight talking.       2

New Mon 28 Jul 14 16:44   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> Eg. If your close friend is overweight and could do with a diet, would it >> be most productive to tell them they are fat? That is actually a good example to use.. because.. there was a recent post about fatties and I suppose by definition I am one, although I think of myself as just being 'large'. To get to the point, I was rather surprised at the blunt vitriol that came out on the subject. Obviously there's no legal back up to prevent rudeness to fatties (and I'm not suggesting there should be), however.. decent people wouldn't be rude to anyone, whether or not there was legislation covering it .. and I found it rather ironic that some people who were vociferously debating racism and the bigotry that sometimes goes with it .. were quite free and easy with the bigotry when it comes to people who are larger than average.       1

New Mon 28 Jul 14 16:53   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> were vociferously debating racism and the bigotry that sometimes goes with it .. were quite >> free and easy with the bigotry when it comes to people who are larger than >> average. You can't loose "black", you don't become black because you are a food pig, "black" does not hang over the side of an aircraft seat, there is no cure for "black...... Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jul 14 at 16:54

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:06   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> You can't loose "black", you don't become black because you are a food pig, "black" >> does not hang over the side of an aircraft seat, there is no cure for >> "black...... >> ...and the relevance? It is about being polite and reasonable with your fellow human beings ..and keeping your prejudices, if you have any, to yourself. Calling someone a 'food pig' is hardly achieving that ... and specifically contravenes what has just posted asking users of this site to remain respectful of their fellow human beings. Why do you feel the need to be so rude?       5

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:11   Islamist school agenda - Zero

So how else do you get fat?

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:17   Islamist school agenda - Pat

Lack of mobility? Exercise isn't easy when mobility is a problem. Pat       6

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:26   Islamist school agenda - Zero

Then one consumes the appropriate amount of calories to match.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:37   Islamist school agenda - Pat

>>Then one consumes the appropriate amount of calories to match<< Let me get this right Z. This person has become more and more immobile, is in pain daily, struggles with coming to terms with not being able to do what they use to be able to do. Leads a sedentary life by force not choice, wonders what the future will bring and who will look after them. Add to all that the bright spark who tells them the answer to all their problems is eating less when that's the only pleasure they have left....Right. There speaks a mobile , not fat, person. Pat

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:42   Islamist school agenda - car4play

Pat, maybe not everyone is as compassionate as you. :-(       1

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:48   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> >>Then one consumes the appropriate amount of calories to match<< >> >> Let me get this right Z. >> >> This person has become more and more immobile, is in pain daily, struggles with coming >> to terms with not being able to do what they use to be able to >> do. Leads a sedentary life by force not choice, wonders what the future will bring >> and who will look after them. >> >> Add to all that the bright spark who tells them the answer to all their >> problems is eating less when that's the only pleasure they have left....Right. There is no pleasure in being fat and it makes the mobility and the pain worse. Don't trot out fatuous made up examples to try and disguise the facts. No-one likes being fat. Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jul 14 at 17:49

New Mon 28 Jul 14 17:53   Islamist school agenda - CGNorwich

Well yes of course it would be wrong to put it that bluntly but it is also true to say that immobility problems are not helped by being overweight and depending on the prognosis of the illness some tactful advice as to diet and sensible eating might well be appropriate.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:06   Islamist school agenda - Pat

No-one heard of comfort eating on here then? So, tell me, what do you all do when the world is a horrible place to live in, it all goes wrong and you want to feel better? Pat

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:14   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> No-one heard of comfort eating on here then? >> >> So, tell me, what do you all do when the world is a horrible place >> to live in, it all goes wrong and you want to feel better? >> >> Pat Giving it a title "comfort eating" is just trying to find excuses and justification, getting fat makes you feel worse, mentally and physically. Anyway all this "being nasty to fat people" is just a smoke screen to divert attention way from the original thread.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:07   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

This is a very meandering thread. No one likes being grossly obese but there's a wide range of human frames and physiques and some people are comfortable carrying a lot of flesh. Nevertheless since the thread had already veered from Islamism to racism and bigotry, Zero's point that you can become less obese by dieting but there's no way of becoming less black if that's how you were born is a good one. FMR became seriously over-excited. Started by over-analysing and over-interpreting, then lost patience or got drunk and snarled angrily at the forum in general. Tee hee! Everyone doing their thing, but these are difficult subjects. Anyone can comment on anything but some things need careful phrasing if you don't want to be misunderstood. This need puts some in a bit of a panic I reckon.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:19   Islamist school agenda - smokie

It may or may not be true that no-one likes being fat, but some people are just not that bothered by it Z, certainly not as bothered as you seem to be. I'm sure you have had some traits that some would find offensive but I doubt you often got told about them. Most people are reasonably tolerant and let things pass, or keep their thoughts to themselves where they are likely to be considered offensive, unless they are deliberately stirring for a fight (trolling, as it's known on the internet...). From Wikipedia In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroÊŠl/, /ˈtrÉ’l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion Last edited by: smokie on Mon 28 Jul 14 at 18:19       6

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:24   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> From Wikipedia >>> "In Internet slang, a troll ...etc.' But that said, smokie, I am also reminded of the need to sail close to the wind sometimes to amuse people and keep things lively... I've been called a troll in my day. You are all very tolerant though I find (smarmy smirk).

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:30   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> It may or may not be true that no-one likes being fat, but some people >> are just not that bothered by it Z, certainly not as bothered as you seem >> to be. > I'm only bothered about it when thy block doorways or spread over seats. Then they get the abuse they deserve. As far as accusing me of being a troll? whatever.       1

New Tue 29 Jul 14 01:33   Islamist school agenda - VxFan

>> I'm only bothered about it when thy block doorways or spread over seats. I'd sooner have a fat person next to me than a smoker. Especially one whose clothes stink of stale fags. Smokers can give up the fags if they really want to, but many don't. Just like us fatties can give up food if we want to. Give me a bag of sweets instead of fags any day of the week.       2

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:40   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> So how else do you get fat? >> You get fat by either eating (or drinking the wrong drinks) too much in comparison with the activities you indulge in that loses calories. There is also a theory that your genes have something to do with some of it ..but I'd readily agree that a strict food input would sort it out, albeit someone else without those genes would not need to have the same worry and some people find their will power somewhat lacking in that dept...similar to people who have other foibles, e.g. smoking. Now, back to your lack of tolerance and understanding of others. So in Planet Zero if you are too large it's 'anything goes'... are there any other aspects of human frailty that you'd like to own up to being so harsh on?       1

New Mon 28 Jul 14 18:54   Islamist school agenda - manuel_fawlty

>> So in Planet Zero if you are too large it's 'anything goes'... are there any >> other aspects of human frailty that you'd like to own up to being so harsh >> on? Racism.       2

New Mon 28 Jul 14 22:32   Islamist school agenda - swiss tony

>> So how else do you get fat? >> Thyroid Gland problems. www.webmd.com/diet/medical-reasons-obesity

New Tue 29 Jul 14 09:47   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> It is about being polite and reasonable with your fellow human beings ..and keeping your >> prejudices, if you have any, to yourself. Tell it to the vociferous UKIP mob on here. And anywhere, come to think of it. You wanna come over all racey-xenophobey, be prepared to get told what you are. I thought we were grown ups.       2

New Tue 29 Jul 14 11:00   Islamist school agenda - Alanovich

>> >> Seems being called a racist and a bigot is a worse crime than actually >> being one >> >> The manner in which a point is made is what matters. Yes. Absolutely. >> >> It does in real life and it does so here. So my comment stands, being called a racist and a bigot is a worse crime than actually being one. >> >> And none of this denies the ability for straight talking. Cobblers.       1

New Wed 30 Jul 14 07:51   Islamist school agenda - Duncan

>> Ok. I'm on hols but have had to log in here to take a look >> at stuff that has been drawn to my attention. >> Firstly. Mark, I think you make great contributions. Your writing is often good and thought-provoking. >> I also understand that on topics such as religion and politics we can all get >> very passionate. >> >> However, in this instance I believe, as others have stated, that the freedom we enjoy >> here also comes from the boundaries which we all observe. I tried to set these >> out in the house rules. >> Reading some of the content in your posts I'm sure you will agree with me >> does tread over what we set out as acceptable. >> Eg. "Which is why bigots and racists, such as yourself, bother me so much. You >> are appalling human beings. " >> >> Now whoever that was directed to might be all those things, and they certainly are >> in your eyes, but our deal here was that we never say such things. >> >> I have hidden the first post of yours where this particular comment was made and >> this has had the effect of hiding everything linked below it. >> >> I trust that you take this in a constructive manner and continue to offer your >> valuable insights etc. but take on the added challenge to do so in a manners >> befitting our rules here. Not for the first time. NoFM2R has got some previous. I think his hounding of RattleAndSmoke could be construed as bullying and we haven't seen Rattle for quite a while. www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=17077&v=f Last edited by: Duncan on Wed 30 Jul 14 at 07:52       2

New Wed 30 Jul 14 08:32   Islamist school agenda - car4play

Funny enough in today's telegraph: www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/10998111/Online-trolls-wouldnt-dare-to-be-so-abusive-to-my-face.html       1

New Wed 23 Jul 14 11:58   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>> But how do we respond when the shared ideology driving a 'conservative' education is Catholic >> or Jewish? >> >> Because if we allow this stuff then it looks a bit odd when we panic >> about Islam. No need to feel guilty. These are not faith schools, and according to the review it is they who are preaching religious intolerance.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 13:17   Islamist school agenda - Dave

I'm just surprised that so many people are surprised.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 14:39   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

Quite good pieces in my comic today pointing out and underlining the fact that those raising the alarm were mainstream Muslims furious that their children were being taught primitive backward tribal rubbish, not racists following some Islamophobe agenda. Of course anyone sensible and interested or involved knew that already. But tabloid coverage of these things by all media often have a misleading, mischievous effect on the average white Briton.       2

New Wed 23 Jul 14 14:46   Islamist school agenda - DP

>> Quite good pieces in my comic today pointing out and underlining the fact that those >> raising the alarm were mainstream Muslims furious that their children were being taught primitive backward >> tribal rubbish, not racists following some Islamophobe agenda. Mirrors the attitude of the Muslims I've discussed this with as well. Just as shocked, saddened and generally appalled as anyone else. Of course, this wouldn't register with the "all Muslims are salivating, suicide bombing loony militants who would blow you up or impose Sharia law on you as soon as look at you" tabloid shower. Discussing Islam with a normal, moderate, educated Muslim is thoroughly enlightening.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 14:59   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

>> >> Discussing Islam with a normal, moderate, educated Muslim is thoroughly enlightening. >> As on "Beyond belief" with Earnie Rea on R4. Everyone is so reasonable and tolerant it seems for a moment as if there can be no more problems left in the world.

New Wed 23 Jul 14 15:15   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

>>Quite good pieces in my comic today pointing out and underlining the fact that those raising the alarm were mainstream Muslims I presumed that to be the case as they are predominantly the people whose children are most affected. The opposite presumption, that this kind of teaching is what the parents of children in these schools actually want, isn't really credible. They might in many cases be happy to see them have a religious education, but that isn't the same thing. Hence the 'Trojan Horse' label. Not at all similar to 'faith' schools like the excellent VA Church of England school in this village, which does teach children about other religions and to accept diversity, unless it was to be taken over by extreme Christians endorsing stoning to death for blasphemy, adultery, false prophecy, working on a Sunday etc. etc. (just the ones that spring to mind from the Old Testament). Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 23 Jul 14 at 15:16

New Wed 23 Jul 14 15:34   Islamist school agenda - Westpig

>> Quite good pieces in my comic today pointing out and underlining the fact that those >> raising the alarm were mainstream Muslims furious that their children were being taught primitive backward >> tribal rubbish, not racists following some Islamophobe agenda. Do you have to be a moderate Muslim to be able to point things like this out ..or are the rest of us barred from comment, in case we might be bigoted, racist etc? >> >> Of course anyone sensible and interested or involved knew that already. Of course. >> But tabloid coverage of >> these things by all media often have a misleading, mischievous effect on the average white >> Briton. What happens if it has the same affect on the average white Briton as it does on the average Muslim? Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 23 Jul 14 at 15:34       1

New Wed 23 Jul 14 15:46   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> Do you have to be a moderate Muslim to be able to point things like this out ..or are the rest of us barred from comment, in case we might be bigoted, racist etc? Of course not Westpig. Anyone can comment on anything, it's supposed to be a free country. But comment on these matters does need to be carefully phrased, to avoid providing ammunition to those all too eager to accuse others of racism and to avoid over-exciting the real racists slobs who abound in our society as in most others. One points out that ordinary mainstream Muslims hate this stuff too because they at least can't be suspected of Islamophobia, dig?

New Wed 23 Jul 14 18:36   Islamist school agenda - Roger.

And "moderate" Germans went along with the odious Nazis until it was too late.       1

New Mon 28 Jul 14 15:11   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

Surely "white" and "muslim" are not opposites or even mutually exclusive? One is a colour, the other a religion. Jews come from the same part of the world as arabs, but no one would think of identifying them with reference to whiteness.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 19:37   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

This thread is so weird. Up at the top there I am complaining drunkenly and almost certainly wrongly of being censored. Later the sprauncy FMR, crazed no doubt by high altitudes, chewing coca leaves and perhaps a touch of dengue from the Caribbean, worked himself into a passion and succeeded in being genuinely censored in quite a big way. I am almost envious.

New Mon 28 Jul 14 22:47   Islamist school agenda - car4play

Yeah and someone brought up fat people. How did we get there?

New Tue 29 Jul 14 03:39   Islamist school agenda - Pat

It's all Zero's fault we're fat anyway. Comfort eating means every time he has a go at someone on here they go and eat a Mars bar to make themselves feel better. A Mars bar has 240 calories (or used to before it shrank) The nicest way to use up those 240 calories is bonking. All weight watchers know that a good bonk means you can have a Mars bar free. So, taking into account the age group on here, it's all Z's fault. Pat

New Tue 29 Jul 14 08:15   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

>>>> >> So, taking into account the age group on here, . >> Take your teeth out before eating the mars bar, but put them back in before moving on ...

New Tue 29 Jul 14 08:43   Islamist school agenda - madf

>> So, taking into account the age group on here, it's all Z's fault. >> >> Pat >> Most of you are youngsters - relatively speaking - compared to our more senile elderly members.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 09:03   Islamist school agenda - Crankcase

Well I'm certainly too old to be faffing about with Mars bars or bonking.

New Tue 29 Jul 14 11:35   Islamist school agenda - madf

>> Well I'm certainly too old to be faffing about with Mars bars or bonking. >> In my opinion, you are never too old for either.. or most things come for that. But I find threads like this which end up as either complaints about content or behaviour just tiresome.. (I cannot be bothered to read diatribes or long paragraphs.. life's too short.. Back to the bees: now there is a short life- six weeks just now...

New Wed 30 Jul 14 08:57   Islamist school agenda - Duncan

>> Back to the bees: now there is a short life- six weeks just now... >> Do they take enough exercise? Have you had a look at their diet recently? Surely all that nectar and stuff can't be healthy, can it?

New Wed 30 Jul 14 09:26   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

I bet he even feeds them sugar in the winter.

New Wed 30 Jul 14 12:55   Islamist school agenda - Pat

It will make them fat and Zero will get on his soap box again..... Pat

New Wed 30 Jul 14 14:18   Islamist school agenda - madf

>> It will make them fat and Zero will get on his soap box again..... >> >> Pat >> No.. I'll send them to Slimfast or Slimmers' World.. Or not feed them.. Or get them to chase Z? :-)

New Fri 1 Aug 14 16:35   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

Quite a decent scholarly piece which may be of interest to some here. So, What Did The Muslims Do For The Jews? By David J Wasserstein July 31, 2014 "Jewish Chronicle" - May 24, 2012 - Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity - also in Christendom - through the medieval period into the modern world. By the fourth century, Christianity had become the dominant religion in the Roman empire. One aspect of this success was opposition to rival faiths, including Judaism, along with massive conversion of members of such faiths, sometimes by force, to Christianity. Much of our testimony about Jewish existence in the Roman empire from this time on consists of accounts of conversions. Great and permanent reductions in numbers through conversion, between the fourth and the seventh centuries, brought with them a gradual but relentless whittling away of the status, rights, social and economic existence, and religious and cultural life of Jews all over the Roman empire. A long series of enactments deprived Jewish people of their rights as citizens, prevented them from fulfilling their religious obligations, and excluded them from the society of their fellows. This went along with the centuries-long military and political struggle with Persia. As a tiny element in the Christian world, the Jews should not have been affected much by this broad, political issue. Yet it affected them critically, because the Persian empire at this time included Babylon - now Iraq - at the time home to the world's greatest concentration of Jews. Here also were the greatest centres of Jewish intellectual life. The most important single work of Jewish cultural creativity in over 3,000 years, apart from the Bible itself - the Talmud - came into being in Babylon. The struggle between Persia and Byzantium, in our period, led increasingly to a separation between Jews under Byzantine, Christian rule and Jews under Persian rule. Beyond all this, the Jews who lived under Christian rule seemed to have lost the knowledge of their own culturally specific languages - Hebrew and Aramaic - and to have taken on the use of Latin or Greek or other non-Jewish, local, languages. This in turn must have meant that they also lost access to the central literary works of Jewish culture - the Torah, Mishnah, poetry, midrash, even liturgy. The loss of the unifying force represented by language - and of the associated literature - was a major step towards assimilation and disappearance. In these circumstances, with contact with the one place where Jewish cultural life continued to prosper - Babylon - cut off by conflict with Persia, Jewish life in the Christian world of late antiquity was not simply a pale shadow of what it had been three or four centuries earlier. It was doomed. Had Islam not come along, the conflict with Persia would have continued. The separation between western Judaism, that of Christendom, and Babylonian Judaism, that of Mesopotamia, would have intensified. Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance in many areas. And Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult. But this was all prevented by the rise of Islam. The Islamic conquests of the seventh century changed the world, and did so with dramatic, wide-ranging and permanent effect for the Jews. Within a century of the death of Mohammad, in 632, Muslim armies had conquered almost the whole of the world where Jews lived, from Spain eastward across North Africa and the Middle East as far as the eastern frontier of Iran and beyond. Almost all the Jews in the world were now ruled by Islam. This new situation transformed Jewish existence. Their fortunes changed in legal, demographic, social, religious, political, geographical, economic, linguistic and cultural terms - all for the better. First, things improved politically. Almost everywhere in Christendom where Jews had lived now formed part of the same political space as Babylon - Cordoba and Basra lay in the same political world. The old frontier between the vital centre in Babylonia and the Jews of the Mediterranean basin was swept away, forever. Political change was partnered by change in the legal status of the Jewish population: although it is not always clear what happened during the Muslim conquests, one thing is certain. The result of the conquests was, by and large, to make the Jews second-class citizens. This should not be misunderstood: to be a second-class citizen was a far better thing to be than not to be a citizen at all. For most of these Jews, second-class citizenship represented a major advance. In Visigothic Spain, for example, shortly before the Muslim conquest in 711, the Jews had seen their children removed from them and forcibly converted to Christianity and had themselves been enslaved. In the developing Islamic societies of the classical and medieval periods, being a Jew meant belonging to a category defined under law, enjoying certain rights and protections, alongside various obligations. These rights and protections were not as extensive or as generous as those enjoyed by Muslims, and the obligations were greater but, for the first few centuries, the Muslims themselves were a minority, and the practical differences were not all that great. Along with legal near-equality came social and economic equality. Jews were not confined to ghettos, either literally or in terms of economic activity. The societies of Islam were, in effect, open societies. In religious terms, too, Jews enjoyed virtually full freedom. They might not build many new synagogues - in theory - and they might not make too public their profession of their faith, but there was no really significant restriction on the practice of their religion. Along with internal legal autonomy, they also enjoyed formal representation, through leaders of their own, before the authorities of the state. Imperfect and often not quite as rosy as this might sound, it was at least the broad norm. The political unity brought by the new Islamic world-empire did not last, but it created a vast Islamic world civilisation, similar to the older Christian civilisation that it replaced. Within this huge area, Jews lived and enjoyed broadly similar status and rights everywhere. They could move around, maintain contacts, and develop their identity as Jews. A great new expansion of trade from the ninth century onwards brought the Spanish Jews - like the Muslims - into touch with the Jews and the Muslims even of India. A ll this was encouraged by a further, critical development. Huge numbers of people in the new world of Islam adopted the language of the Muslim Arabs. Arabic gradually became the principal language of this vast area, excluding almost all the rest: Greek and Syriac, Aramaic and Coptic and Latin all died out, replaced by Arabic. Persian, too, went into a long retreat, to reappear later heavily influenced by Arabic. The Jews moved over to Arabic very rapidly. By the early 10th century, only 300 years after the conquests, Sa'adya Gaon was translating the Bible into Arabic. Bible translation is a massive task - it is not undertaken unless there is a need for it. By about the year 900, the Jews had largely abandoned other languages and taken on Arabic. The change of language in its turn brought the Jews into direct contact with broader cultural developments. The result from the 10th century on was a striking pairing of two cultures. The Jews of the Islamic world developed an entirely new culture, which differed from their culture before Islam in terms of language, cultural forms, influences, and uses. Instead of being concerned primarily with religion, the new Jewish culture of the Islamic world, like that of its neighbours, mixed the religious and the secular to a high degree. The contrast, both with the past and with medieval Christian Europe, was enormous. Like their neighbours, these Jews wrote in Arabic in part, and in a Jewish form of that language. The use of Arabic brought them close to the Arabs. But the use of a specific Jewish form of that language maintained the barriers between Jew and Muslim. The subjects that Jews wrote about, and the literary forms in which they wrote about them, were largely new ones, borrowed from the Muslims and developed in tandem with developments in Arabic Islam. Also at this time, Hebrew was revived as a language of high literature, parallel to the use among the Muslims of a high form of Arabic for similar purposes. Along with its use for poetry and artistic prose, secular writing of all forms in Hebrew and in (Judeo-)Arabic came into being, some of it of high quality. Much of the greatest poetry in Hebrew written since the Bible comes from this period. Sa'adya Gaon, Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Ezra (Moses and Abraham), Maimonides, Yehuda Halevi, Yehudah al-Harizi, Samuel ha-Nagid, and many more - all of these names, well known today, belong in the first rank of Jewish literary and cultural endeavour. W here did these Jews produce all this? When did they and their neighbours achieve this symbiosis, this mode of living together? The Jews did it in a number of centres of excellence. The most outstanding of these was Islamic Spain, where there was a true Jewish Golden Age, alongside a wave of cultural achievement among the Muslim population. The Spanish case illustrates a more general pattern, too. What happened in Islamic Spain - waves of Jewish cultural prosperity paralleling waves of cultural prosperity among the Muslims - exemplifies a larger pattern in Arab Islam. In Baghdad, between the ninth and the twelfth centuries; in Qayrawan (in north Africa), between the ninth and the 11th centuries; in Cairo, between the 10th and the 12th centuries, and elsewhere, the rise and fall of cultural centres of Islam tended to be reflected in the rise and fall of Jewish cultural activity in the same places. This was not coincidence, and nor was it the product of particularly enlightened liberal patronage by Muslim rulers. It was the product of a number of deeper features of these societies, social and cultural, legal and economic, linguistic and political, which together enabled and indeed encouraged the Jews of the Islamic world to create a novel sub-culture within the high civilisation of the time. This did not last for ever; the period of culturally successful symbiosis between Jew and Arab Muslim in the middle ages came to a close by about 1300. In reality, it had reached this point even earlier, with the overall relative decline in the importance and vitality of Arabic culture, both in relation to western European cultures and in relation to other cultural forms within Islam itself; Persian and Turkish. Jewish cultural prosperity in the middle ages operated in large part as a function of Muslim, Arabic cultural (and to some degree political) prosperity: when Muslim Arabic culture thrived, so did that of the Jews; when Muslim Arabic culture declined, so did that of the Jews. In the case of the Jews, however, the cultural capital thus created also served as the seed-bed of further growth elsewhere - in Christian Spain and in the Christian world more generally. The Islamic world was not the only source of inspiration for the Jewish cultural revival that came later in Christian Europe, but it certainly was a major contributor to that development. Its significance cannot be overestimated. David J Wasserstein is the Eugene Greener Jr Professor of Jewish Studies at Vanderbilt University. This article is adapted from last week's Jordan Lectures in Comparative Religion at the School of Oriental and African Studies. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 1 Aug 14 at 16:36

New Tue 5 Aug 14 15:52   Islamist school agenda - Dutchie

That was plenty to read testing my patience A.C.What is causing all the animosity between Arabs and Jews if there is so little difference.

New Tue 5 Aug 14 16:01   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> That was plenty to read testing my patience A.C.What is causing all the animosity between >> Arabs and Jews if there is so little difference. There is an even smaller difference between the two branches of Islam, but with a much larger amount of animosity!

New Fri 8 Aug 14 00:49   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

>> There is an even smaller difference between the two branches of Islam, but with a much larger amount of animosity! It's true that the Cult and the Tradition were initially at daggers drawn. But in many places - Iraq being a notable example - the Shi'a and the Sunna existed cheek by jowl for centuries in relative harmony. There has been a lot of mischief-making in recent years, exploiting the schism in Islam among other things. Evil wicked stuff.

New Tue 5 Aug 14 16:25   Islamist school agenda - Armel Coussine

Yes, it's a bit verbose. But it doesn't even address the question of 'animosity'. It's about the ethnic and social history of the civilized world (so called).

New Tue 5 Aug 14 19:20   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

Ok, so the Muslims have in the past done a lot for the Jews, and it could be argued that that help might have been crucial. They have also incidentally done a lot for us too - mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and at various times military help (alliances with the Ottomans against other European powers when it suited them and us, army units and armies from the Indian subcontinent in two world wars, for example). But that was the past. What is the article saying is the significance of that help now? Does help hundreds of years ago need to go on being acknowledged? Does it have any relevance for relations today?

New Tue 5 Aug 14 21:40   Islamist school agenda - Dutchie

Maybe that is the problem Cliff.People don't want to move on it is all in the past.Maybe it isn't as simple, we like to think we are all the same.But our culture makes us what we are and we never solve anything by killing each other.

New Tue 5 Aug 14 22:37   Islamist school agenda - CGNorwich

"we never solve anything by killing each other." Unfortunately sometimes there is no alternative. If your very existence is threatened you may have no other option. “Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight, But Roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right.” H Belloc

New Tue 5 Aug 14 22:45   Islamist school agenda - Dutchie

True Norwich it is in our nature for all kind of reasons to go to war.Roaring Bill won.Looking back what I wrote it doesn't make sense does it?

New Wed 6 Aug 14 08:02   Islamist school agenda - Zero

>> "we never solve anything by killing each other." We solved the Hitler problem by killing one another. Mind you we also created the Hitler problem by killing one another.

New Wed 6 Aug 14 10:31   Islamist school agenda - Dutchie

Don't they call that a paradox Zero? Lets' hope it won't happen again.

New Wed 6 Aug 14 10:20   Islamist school agenda - Cliff Pope

"Thrice is he armed that hath his quarrel just, But four times he who gets his blow in fust" Josh Billings       1

New Tue 12 Aug 14 15:07   Islamist school agenda - Dutchie

If Islam stands for what is happening in Iraq they can keep it.These fanatics want sorting out .

New Tue 12 Aug 14 16:20   Islamist school agenda - zippy

If this spreads and they take Iraq, then Syria, Saudi and Kuwait then they will control the oil in the middle east and the USA won't care as they are now oil and gas independent.

New Tue 12 Aug 14 16:49   Islamist school agenda - madf

>> If this spreads and they take Iraq, then Syria, Saudi and Kuwait then they will >> control the oil in the middle east and the USA won't care as they are >> now oil and gas independent. >> Well if they do, they will attack Israel. Which has nukes for such an eventuality. I expect they would use them them.. in fact I am sure they are busily adding more as tactical weapons as I write.. (I would) That should sterilise the problem... Last edited by: madf on Tue 12 Aug 14 at 16:49

New Tue 12 Aug 14 17:26   Islamist school agenda - zippy

>> Well if they do, they will attack Israel. Which has nukes for such an eventuality. >> I expect they would use them them.. in fact I am sure they are busily >> adding more as tactical weapons as I write.. Nukes work with enemy cities and infrastructure. These lunatics are running around in stolen trucks are all over the place. I suspect that ISIS don't care about the casualties because they are not that way inclined. Israel would be wise to build very high walls and have a very good army and ground attack aircraft.

New Tue 12 Aug 14 18:19   Islamist school agenda - Manatee

Israel will very sensibly get its retaliation in first as it has done before, and no doubt be lambasted for it.

New Tue 12 Aug 14 22:34   Islamist school agenda - Roger.

Not just in schools, if this report is correct. www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/12/ISIS-agitators-London

New Wed 13 Aug 14 11:44   Islamist school agenda - Bromptonaut

>> Not just in schools, if this report is correct. >> >> www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/12/ISIS-agitators-London Political nutters leafleting in Oxford St? Ooodathortit??