Are we as a country going to have to start thinking differently?
The current flooding in the north of England is the third time in a fairly short space of time that some have copped it.
It must be devastating to have that happen to your home once.. but three times?
Trouble is, the bigger picture is weather change. How many times can you re-build a home and make it exactly like it was?
Is there not a case for, as a minimum, sockets being at waist height, bare tiled floors with movable rugs, expensive white goods up much higher, etc....in some countries houses are built on stilts, could we not build stuff whereby the ground floor is just parking, so you move the car elsewhere if there's a storm coming in...
.... then there's the inevitability of some places having to be given up on if it keeps happening.
Surely there's only so much the Environment Agency can do if our weather has or is changing.... not that i'm saying they've necessarily done enough currently.. just that in some cases it'll be a lost cause or doing so much still won't be enough or will just cause problems somewhere else.
Have we allowed too much house building in places they shouldn't have been built? How many times do you see an old church flooded, they seemed to put them on the higher ground usually?
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 26 Dec 15 at 22:33
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Why do we keep building on flood plains?
Why do the idiots in charge 'not get it?'
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Yep those dam fool Romans built an entire city - Eboracum on a flood plain and the inhabitants of York have been paying the price ever since.
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>> Yep those dam fool Romans built an entire city - Eboracum on a flood plain
>> and the inhabitants of York have been paying the price ever since.
The romans allowed the rest of the flood plain around them to work as it should, the swamps around it were also an excellent defence against invaders and raiders. Plus a good place for food. Plenty of eel traps.
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I suspect that it was its excellent location as a port which was the main reason. A ban on building on flood plains would now mean that nothing more could be built in York or similar areas which would clearly be a nonsense.
As you say there are good and bad schemes for building on flood plains. An outright ban would be unworkable
Just looking a the TV most of the buildings affected by the current floods look as though they have been there for decades if not centuries. New builds don't seem to be the problem.
We are all going to pay for this floodin. Insurance premiums set to rise in April to pay for the Flood Re fund. Initial surcharge cost £10.50 but I can see that rising rapidly.
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>> We are all going to pay for this floodin. Insurance premiums set to rise in
>> April to pay for the Flood Re fund. Initial surcharge cost £10.50 but I can
>> see that rising rapidly.
>>
"Rising rapidly". I like it.
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>> Why do we keep building on flood plains?
>>
>> Why do the idiots in charge 'not get it?'
We do and we dont. This lot of flooding is not in the same place, but has moved south and east slightly. Even to places that don't normally flood. It indicates that the whole large area of the North West has had a huge amount of rain, rain that normally would not be seen. You can't economically plan for the vastly "abnormal". Of course you could, but people would not accept the huge walls and concrete drainage channels that would destroy the look of their environment.
Flooding does not have a single cause, nor does it have a single fix. The whole way we tend and manage the land, including farmers, foresters, national parks, road planners, local councils and home owners concreting over their front gardens has to be controlled and managed with a holistic approach to water management.
As for flood plains? I live in one and have for a number of years. We have had nearby cases where developers have bullied and bulldozed planning through flood risk refusals and lengthy appeals to acceptance, with much sucking in of teeth by locals, and lo property flooding has inevitably happened. We have also had enlightened developers who have developed small scale estates, with appropriate house design (stilted and built to dry quickly with minimal damage) and appropriate feel for how a flood plain works, and more importantly allow the flood plain to work, because it is a complex expansion vessel. Destroy, change or tame it and you will have agro somewhere else. Usually multiple somewhere else.
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Yeah the River Arun today was wider and more turbulent than usual. There was a bit of water in the low-lying fields, but nothing serious. It was worse a week ago.
The Arun is tidal up to here more or less. It flows towards the sea but often tastes salty.
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>> Why do we keep building on flood plains?
>>
>> Why do the idiots in charge 'not get it?'
>>
They get it. They don't live there.
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>>They get it. They don't live there.
Correction - They don't have to live there.
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>> >>They get it. They don't live there.
>>
>> Correction - They don't have to live there.
Why are riverside properties some of the most expensive and sought after?
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>>Why are riverside properties some of the most expensive and sought after?
Very true. I'd like to live beside running water, but after events over recent years, I wouldn't chance it under any circumstances. I often see properties on Escape to the Country with little streams trickling along at the end of the garden and wonder what that brook would look like under flood conditions.
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>> Correction - They don't have to live there.
>>
No one "has" to live there, I live near water, a big estury a mile wide. I chose to live 900' above sea level with no high ground nearby to drain in my direction. I consider flood risk as one of the house buying decisions, it is naive not to.
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>>No one "has" to live there
I was thinking along the lines of people who aren't in any position to up sticks and move on like you or I would.
I was speaking to my 83 year old sister in London just a minute ago. She said she was in tears reading about the poor people who have been flooded out three times. There are many of them too and no expense should be spared in trying to make their lives as comfortable as possible.
Charity begins at home!
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>> I consider flood risk as one of the house buying decisions,
>> it is naive not to.
While it might be naive to move somewhere without checking flood risk I suspect a lot of property flooded in last month would be regarded as low risk, <.5% probability in any one year, or no more than medium. More than that and you'd probably have trouble with mortgage as well as insurance.
Flood defences that were overtopped in Carlisle were supposed to be OK for all but 1/100 year occurrence. Ditto Keswick IIRC.
No chance of being at 900' within at least an hour's drive of here. The Nene flooded locally in 1998 and subsequent defences greatly mitigated risk in St James, Towcester and Kislingbury. The defences however can only move water around - the river holds more as a result but it often tops the bund and floods surrounding fields.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 13:38
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>> Why do we keep building on flood plains?
We need to learn from the countries that have serious rain. As a young sailor in far flung lands I was warned of the dangers of monsoon drains, usually falls in the dark on the way home from a drinking establishment. During December I experienced a couple of monsoon storms, the local residents carried on as usual, minus their flip flops. It is a balance, floods every year and build the infrastructure to cope, or floods occaisionally and live with the concquenses. If it had fallen as snow we would be complaining that it is cold and we could not move around.
lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/habitats/details/23
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 08:33
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>> It is a balance, floods every year and build the infrastructure to cope, or
>> floods occaisionally and live with the concquenses. If it had fallen as snow we would
>> be complaining that it is cold and we could not move around.
>>
>> lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/habitats/details/23
Apples/pears comparison I think.
Singapore is a small city state more or less surrounded by water. Even if UK had regular monsoon style rainfall we wouldn't have the straightforward option of draining directly to the sea.
York is sounding more and more like another case of defences overwhelmed - pumps that couldn't keep up when called on to exceed their design limit. Result was defences being lowered and one area sacrificed to save another from worse damage.
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>> Apples/pears comparison I think.
>>
>> Singapore is a small city state more or less surrounded by water.
>>
India is not an island and seems to survive the annual monsoon, but I admit that Chennai has recently had serious floods which was the rain that I caught the edge of.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 12:56
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>> India is not an island and seems to survive the annual monsoon,
It doesn't. But when you have nothing, a monsoon doesn't have much of worth to destroy.
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It's true that poor Indians under the monsoon don't have many things that we would consider 'of worth'. But what little they have is of much more worth to them than it would be to us.
We can just shrug and as it were buy another one. But an Indian villager has to protect his radio, clock, valuable clothing and so on, keeping it above the waterline.
Of course Indians and Bangladeshis have been on top of this stuff since time immemorial, stashing the valuables up trees and on eminences.
(Naturally one sympathizes greatly with people here whose homes have been flooded. But compared to third world people, even Indians who aren't as poor as they used to be, our people are protected by insurance and by money, so can recover more easily if with a bit of heartache).
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>>How many times do you see an old church flooded, they seemed to put them on the higher ground usually?
Nearer to heaven?
I've always checked out the area thoroughly where any property I was considering buying is situated as far as the potential for flooding is concerned. I would never contemplate buying any property which had even the very slightest possibility of flooding.
Pics in the comics show many flooded properties with for sale boards outside - good luck with that one :(
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>>How
>> many times do you see an old church flooded, they seemed to put them on
>> the higher ground usually?
Ancient Religious placement is a fascinating subject. Usually a church site was built on a pagan site, and a pagan site was normally at a crossing of ley lines, and ley line crossings usually demand a view of the sun rise or sun set. Round here was have an ancient ruined priory built in the middle of a flood plain swamp - Newark Priory. The priory ruins themselves never flood, because it has a very low dyke and ditch round it, nothing more than 18 inches to two feet, and the rest of the flood plain is working as it should. As a result the flood plain rarely get above 6 inches deep. Flooding problems arise when you contain, constrain or channel water. It will bite your ass.
Of course we also have a church nearby built on a hill top, from where you can see most of the country boundary, St Marthas on the Hill. Doesn't even have a road to get to it. Check out the map of ley lines and see how they tally with places of ancient religious interest in your area
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>>Check out the map of ley lines and see how they tally with places of ancient religious interest in your area
Like this one: kateshrewsday.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ley-lines-uk.gif?w=1000&h=679
www.ancient-wisdom.com/Images/countries/English%20pics/stmichaelsmap.gif
Last edited by: Dog on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 08:43
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Careful, Dog. You almost sound as if ley lines are real measurable historic things, instead of a nineteenth century invention that sounds nice and looks quite good on a map, unless you apply a bit of mathematics to the coincidence of points lining up. If you do that you get beautiful ley lines through factories, post offices, housing estates or any other features you care to pick at random.
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>> Careful, Dog. You almost sound as if ley lines are real measurable historic things, instead
>> of a nineteenth century invention that sounds nice and looks quite good on a map,
>> unless you apply a bit of mathematics to the coincidence of points lining up. If
>> you do that you get beautiful ley lines through factories, post offices, housing estates or
>> any other features you care to pick at random.
I was talking ley lines, in the ancient sense of long straight trackways, many since long disappeared, not the modern invention. Its a case of what came first, the pagan site or the ley line crossing. It varies.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 09:40
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Sorry, Zero, ascribed your post to Dog. Too much Christmas reading. Ok, well no doubt about long straight trackways, but it does get all mixed up with Druids and shamans and other bonkers stuff too easily.
My own sister, when she comes to stay, hauls the bed around at some crazy diagonal across the room "so as to align it with the ley lines she can feel emanating from the church over the road". The fact that it also then goes straight through my boiler and careers down the washing line appears to be of less significance to her.
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>> careers down the washing line
And do tell, how did the washing line end up aligned with a ley line? Hmmm?
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I lived in East London many years ago (No, not the Krays and jellied eels East London - a Coastal city) when there was some very heavy rain for a week or so, and much flooding.
Those in riverside properties suffered major damage.
On chap was in the process of sandbagging his doors etc, when there was a knock on the back door - some chap in a canoe, asking if he'd like some help in getting his washing in! The line was just poking up above the floodwaters, and miraculously, there was still a bit of stuff hanging on it.
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>>
>> >> careers down the washing line
>>
>> And do tell, how did the washing line end up aligned with a ley line?
>> Hmmm?
>>
Oh come on. Everyone knows that Little Chefs were originally built on ancient ley lines. Then the roads came along and joined them up.
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One of my favourite bits of debunking is this site.
Just put in your post code and you will find your very own ley line and the mystical powers will surge through your computer.
www.tomscott.com/ley/
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 09:45
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I like that site very much, CG. I had no idea there was a line running from my house to Stonehenge, via Cambridge Services and of course Turner's Containera.
Actually it does go through a number of churches, as well as sprout fields. Be a good excuse to go visit them for fun; why not? Good little day trip that. Thanks.
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The line to Stonehenge from my house goes through Norwich City's ground. They need all the powers the Ancients can provide them at the moment.
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>> The line to Stonehenge from my house goes through Norwich City's ground. They need all
>> the powers the Ancients can provide them at the moment.
Norwich City is like any kind of manager. Always promoted above its abilities.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 10:57
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>> Norwich City is like any kind of manager. Always promoted above its abilities.
Has a time limited value now for poking MUFC fans:
Looking for a cheap winter break? I hear you can't beat the Canaries in December...
The Lad has that one tee'd up for a cousin when herself's family are over.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 27 Dec 15 at 11:43
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I like it. Spurs unfortunately brought us back to reality.
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>> I like it. Spurs unfortunately brought us back to reality.
And they've appointed Ed Balls as Chairman...
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"You seem to live at a swirl of ancient energy highways; this may mean that your area is a hotspot for paranormal activity, or even for unidentified flying objects!"
Should I worry?
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No.
In fact, some clever work with the flymo, a stake and a bit of rope can produce some interesting patterns in your lawn, and hey-presto, the house price increases as the hippy loons want to buy it.
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>> Pat has found a new site
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35184235
Cannot work out where in Shipley that is but never saw the Aire anywhere near so high in my years in West Riding. Look at way the water effortlessly rolls the 'van and its accompanying portacabin under the bridge.
Wonder how far it had been carried?
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>> Cannot work out where in Shipley that is ....
End of Dock Lane. StreetView gives an idea of the normal water height.
...and is it me, but did that caravan go down complete with a turkey in the oven?
;-)
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>> ...and is it me, but did that caravan go down complete with a turkey in
>> the oven?
A used oven? phew it wasnt Pats then.
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>>
>> >> ...and is it me, but did that caravan go down complete with a turkey the oven?
Anything Pat cooked could probably sink a battle ship !
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....I think the main problem was ignoring the "low bridge" sign.
;-)
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>> ....I think the main problem was ignoring the "low bridge" sign.
>>
>>
>> ;-)
blame the sat Nav
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Been pretty grim here. We're OK in the village. Flooding was a consideration when we were house hunting. I suppose if we survived that epic two day rain-storm, anything can be survived. All arterial roads across north Wales were either closed or very bad. There was a tale here of some stupid woman driving close on a hundred miles or more to get to the Next Sale down the road. Today was a contrast, warm and sunny good run in the woods for the dogs who were a mite cabin crazy. Thankful that we were spared but feeling bad for those that were affected.
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We're just back from doing a couple of circuits of Delamere forest on the bikes. It generally drains well being very sandy soil but even that ŵas very gloopy in places today. Hard work at times as it really drags on the tyres but still great to get out in the fresh air.
Once you get away from the car parks, the visitor centre and the burger stalls it's usually quiet enough on the trails but I can only surmise that an advertisement has been placed specifically inviting Liverpudlians with beany hats, jogging pants, Staffies and fat wives with spray on tans to visit the forest en mass today. They were everywhere. It was like some sort of convention.
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The only plus point about the multiple floodings up here is that they have occurred close together. After the first, there is not much left of value to destroy again, it would be a lot worse if they happened a few months apart after folk had re-furbished.
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Much the same in Newborough today Humph. People seemed to be pretty run of the mill. As you say the sandy soil ensures good drainage - dogs had a whale of a time. We have a Lab on loan - and she loved it. Some "puddles" up to her nether regions. All three got what they wanted after two days of enforced incarceration. Three happy dogs curled up at various parts of the lounge whilst the Heroes of Telemark battle it out with the Germans.
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>> Much the same in Newborough today Humph. People seemed to be pretty run of the
>> mill. As you say the sandy soil ensures good drainage - dogs had a whale
>> of a time. We have a Lab on loan - and she loved it. Some
>> "puddles" up to her nether regions. All three got what they wanted after two days
>> of enforced incarceration. Three happy dogs curled up at various parts of the lounge whilst
>> the Heroes of Telemark battle it out with the Germans.
yeah, if the Huns want heavy water they can come and ring it out of my goldie.
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Here's a wacky idea... drill out very large tunnels deep underground and install generators. The tunnels head out to sea. When it reaches flood levels you divert some rivers to the deep tunnels and generate electricity too.
I know there's huge amounts of water at the moment. But thinking outside the box might be needed here. Maybe not something as wacky as my idea.
Or another.... temporary reservoirs to hold water.... and again generate electricity when this happens.
Not cost effective if it's once in a lifetime but it's getting a bit too frequent in some places now.
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Still several routes closed in wessie Yorkshire. The hamlet where a friend lives is still cut off, although some major routes reopened today. Amazing pics in the Yorks Post online.
Living in limestone country my afternoon 7 mile ramble was dry underfoot, glorious sun ( shorts and tee) and surprisingly very few people out and about, although it was off the beaten track away from tourists!
I have a walk with friends tomorrow, 9AM start, from the A6 just north of Kendal, around some lesser known valleys. I expect it to be very muddy underfoot, but at least Kendal is open to traffic & accessible.
A friend of mines car was 'lost' in the floods yesterday. Single file traffic to pass through the water, but cars patiently waiting their turn to go alternately in single file. Some **** in a 4WD was not prepared to wait, overtook the line of traffic and set up a huge bow wave which drowned my friends car coming in the opposite direction. Good job the 4WD didn't stop or my pal would have beaten him to a pulp...
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Governments are running out of excuses.Be it Labour or Tory these weather events arn't one offs anymore.A lot more money has to be spend but in a right way.Politicians have short term visions anything beyond five years is a no no.If big city's like Leeds are affected and Hull was a few years ago people will run out of patience.Tidal gates in York where opened due to fear of pumps not be able to work and York is under water.In Hull a few years ago drains blocked because they where not regular checked and kept free of debris.Heavy rain flooded large areas and left people in misery.
In towns so many gardens are covered in pavers or brick for people to park their cars on.Water has nowhere to go.
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Do we remove all ancient bridges that impede water flow and replace them with wider single span brideges. Oh yes but can we have x public enquiries hat will take a lifetime ?
Now where shall we start, Somerset, Devon, Staines, York, etc. etc.?
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>> Oh yes but can we have x public enquiries hat will take
>> a lifetime ?
>> Now where shall we start, Somerset, Devon, Staines, York, etc. etc.?
Walton? Oh right, yes we got a fantastic bridge there by voting in the minister of transport.
Whats special about staines bridge?
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>> Do we remove all ancient bridges that impede water flow and replace them with wider
>> single span brideges. Oh yes but can we have x public enquiries hat will take
>> a lifetime ?
We can do it, we can fix the problem. If anyone has seen the huge concrete flood channels that cut through Los Angeles, we can do that. We can slash one right through the middle of York if they want it fixed.
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When Somerset was badly flooded, people were moaning about the lack of dredging and some sort of PC 'environment versus people' angle, with the EU thrown in... is that still the case?
That sort of talk seems to have died down.
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>> That sort of talk seems to have died down.
>>
I suspect that for all there might have been a grain of fact somewhere it was mostly bow-locks.....
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Some properties here have flooded many times, and had we had the rain there's been in the north we would have been in trouble this year.
The worst in the 20 years we've been here was a couple of years ago. The road outside was flooded to maybe a foot but we are slightly higher, only inches, but enough. I still had to pump water away from the back of the house that was threatening the damp course owing to the lie of the garden.
The other end of the village was much worse off, with several houses inundated.
There has been much argument and discussion with the various authorities. The gullies are never cleaned these days, so such gutter drains as there are are mostly blocked (LA I think). Many ditches are more or less obstructed (riparian landowners' responsibility, in theory). Culverts were blocked (responsibility often unclear - many are former ditches that have been covered by extensions or driveways). The sewer system was inundated, and the lift pump failed, resulting in covers lifting and sewage joining the flood water (water authority). There was a large release of water from a canal reservoir to prevent it overtopping (Canal and River Trust, who denied it was a factor - not everybody agrees); etc. etc.
Much of this has been improved now, but the result may be that the houses at the end of the chain flood more efficiently, unless further work (large channels or lowering of ground levels) is done to let water into what were once water meadows to the west. The trouble is, there has been some building there too.
The urgent work is always seen as keeping the water away from the recently flooded properties. The important and often more expensive bit is making sure it doesn't just transfer the problem elsewhere.
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Of course anyone affected by these floods is deserving of sympathy. Especially those who live in properties with no recent history of flooding.
The thought does occur though that in the areas which have a relatively regular problem with flooding it wouldn't be my choice to buy or rent a property in those locations. Makes me wonder why people do. Seems a fairly poor odds gamble to me. Even if I had a strong social need to live close to such a place I think I'd try to choose a property built on higher ground.
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Not everybody has a choice or are stuck in a property they can't sell.Our house is in a cul de sac.Just luck that we are higher than the street next to us.Only a slight elevation but it saved us from flooding when everybody else near us where under water.
Civil Engineers and local people should be listened to in areas they know.No good having meetings every year whilst the problem is a known.This is going to effect all of us in the future.
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Things change though.
My house is slightly more than 400 years old. For the vast majority of that time there has been no flooding. However, it flooded about 8 years ago largely because a small but fairly intense group of houses was built in the field(s) that the village previously drained to.
I think quite often the house which floods is not the new one, it i the one inpacted by the new build.
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That has probably happened here, too. What were once water meadows with huge capacity were drained, initially for farming but now partly built on, and the water that would have lain there harmlessly causes watercourses to flood elsewhere.
Maintenance has also been neglected, either by accident or design. There's a sluice down the road that can be used to flood fields to the west instead of joining the watercourse through the village. Older people remember that "somebody" would raise it when there was heavy rain and the bourne was high. Possibly local farmers; but the sluice is now beyond use. Lots of stuff probably happened locally but many rural villages are now mainly dormitories and the people living there have no understanding of the local risks and mitigations.
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>> However, it flooded about 8 years ago...
Fair enough, it's surrounding environment may well have changed but if you were looking to buy it now and you knew that it had flooded, or it was revealed to you prior to purchase, would you buy it now?
I wouldn't. Nor would I buy any other property in a flood risk area. But people do.
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"I wouldn't."
I might .. It all depends on the likelihood of flooding and if the attractions of the house for me outweighed the risk. The effects of flooding can be managed to a large degree as has already been pointed out. Tiled floors , Electrics located above likely flood levels, flood barriers at doors and above all a plan as to what you do. Movable stuff to go upstairs. Trestles to raise large pieces of furniture above likely water level etc .
With some intelligent planning and improvements a potential disaster can be changed to a potential inconvenience
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>> "I wouldn't."
>>
>> I might ..
I would, and loads of people round here do. It has to be said, the houses are built to withstand the flood with minimal damage. High level concrete raft to allow flood water to pass underneath, waterproof cills, flood flapped drains, waterproof plaster, tiled floors, high level electrics.
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>> I would, and loads of people round here do.
Fair enough and they are welcome to make that choice. I still wouldn't though. No chance.
Even monkeys are smart enough to realise that it's safer to sleep up a tree than at the bottom of it.
;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 16:18
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Well, everything has a price or a value.
Would i buy a house i knew was going to flood? Probably not first choice, but if it was a house i really wanted, or at a very good price, or the risk was low etc etc then i might well.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 14:50
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Having customers in one particular street next to the River Teifi who have been flooded three times in the past couple of years I wouldn't, no matter how much the house otherwise appealed to me. The horrible mess, the smell that takes years to fully disappear and the damage would be more than I could stand.
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>> The horrible mess, the smell that takes years to fully disappear
Indeed, a lot of people who have not suffered from flooding often think it's mostly only a matter of ripping out the carpets, replastering and redecorating, possibly a new kitchen as well. The lasting smell is often the worst aspect depending on what has flooded your house. It's usually not just water. I will leave the rest to your imagination...
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>> >> The horrible mess, the smell that takes years to fully disappear
>>
>> Indeed, a lot of people who have not suffered from flooding often think it's mostly
>> only a matter of ripping out the carpets, replastering and redecorating, possibly a new kitchen
>> as well. The lasting smell is often the worst aspect depending on what has flooded
>> your house. It's usually not just water. I will leave the rest to your imagination...
True, but with proper house design toxic silt can be prevented, and clean-up made more effective and easier
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>> I suspect that for all there might have been a grain of fact somewhere it
>> was mostly bow-locks.....
>>
I've found this after an internet trawl:
notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/what-the-authorities-wont-tell-you-about-the-floods/
and this:
johnredwoodsdiary.com/2015/12/28/should-the-environment-agency-dredge-rivers/#comment-794898
Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 17:43
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Of course its all the fault of the EU!
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>> Of course its all the fault of the EU!
>>
What a stupid post.
How about expanding on the subject and being part of the informed debate?
It might be that the EU has its part to play...or it might not.
I don't know, but would like to.
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I was about to point to that.
I think that it points to the way that we decide to follow the directives.
I bet the Dutch don't have any problems with dredging the watercourses.
Last edited by: neiltoo on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 17:56
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>> I was about to point to that.
>>
>> I think that it points to the way that we decide to follow the directives.
>>
>> I bet the Dutch don't have any problems with dredging the watercourses.
Dredging wont fix it.
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England isn't Holland. It's a different geography, different problem. We could spent billions of pounds on canalising rivers, dredging them building concrete flood defences on their banks and raised earth levees and destroy our landscape and environment only to find the next flood disaster was inundation from the sea. What then build a twenty feet hight concrete wall around the coast?
The only way forward is surely an integrated plan involving things like allowing some drained area to revert to marshland, more planting of trees in upland area to slow down run-off, reinstating meanders in our rivers to increase their capacity, stricter control of building in flood prone areas, better flood proofing in homes together with better flood defences in vulnerable areas.
We also have to accept the fact that to a certain degree floods are inevitable and that we do not have unlimited funds to spend on flood defences and that some areas cannot be practically defended.
There are lots of call on taxpayers money. The current clamour will soon pass and the public will be demanding billions be spent on whatever the the next problem is to hit the headlines
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>> England isn't Holland. It's a different geography, different problem.
Indeed. The Netherlands is essentially a man made country created from a river delta and tidal marshes. Being man made it has a fairly simple engineering and geographical solution, one that has occasionally been insufficient, but none the less well understood.
At the moment the weather *is* exceptional, and it is true the effects are being exacerbated by our whole mantra of countryside and urban water management.
At the end of the day York has flooded, its not the first time, its been flooding on and off since the place was first inhabited. It because of where York is.
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>> >> Of course its all the fault of the EU!
>> >>
>>
>> What a stupid post.
It was a stupid uniformed article with no sensible informed references or scientific or engineering studies peddled by a stupid web site with a particular axe to grind.
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>> It was a stupid uniformed article with no sensible informed references or scientific or engineering
>> studies peddled by a stupid web site with a particular axe to grind.
I've never heard of them, what is the axe they wish to grind? Are they a known anti EU outfit?
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>> >> It was a stupid uniformed article with no sensible informed references or scientific or
>> engineering
>> >> studies peddled by a stupid web site with a particular axe to grind.
>>
>> I've never heard of them, what is the axe they wish to grind? Are they
>> a known anti EU outfit?
Its a rabid climate change denial site, with an anti EU bias.
Oh and for some reason, it hates molluscs.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Dec 15 at 22:12
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>> Its a rabid climate change denial site, with an anti EU bias.
I've had a little look at it.. what makes it 'rabid'?
If that site is challenging some people's viewpoints and suggesting they provide some evidence to back up what they've previously stated... what's wrong with that?
Those of us who don't really know, wish to have some facts displayed and then make our own minds up... not be pushed / pointed in one direction and told to believe just because other people know.
How do I know the other side isn't rabid?
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>> When Somerset was badly flooded, people were moaning about the lack of dredging and some
>> sort of PC 'environment versus people' angle, with the EU thrown in... is that still
>> the case?
>>
>> That sort of talk seems to have died down.
>>
Are you thinking of something like this?
www.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/instant-wildlife-just-add-water/
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Storm Frank is now on it way. More wind and heavy rain in the North expected later today.
The next one is Gertrude
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>> The next one is Gertrude
It all got worse when they started naming then.
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You can't blame the E.U for flooding in the North of England can you?
The tidal barrier trying to stop the Humber overflowing into the river Hull just held when we had excess of water due to storms.Less than a foot from the top of the barrier.
Next storm it will overflow or likely to.Do we have the right people in charge of looking after us or is it no money forget about it.
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>> You can't blame the E.U for flooding in the North of England can you?
That depends.
I have absolutely no idea.... and would tend to lean towards it probably not being the main issue.
However, it's been suggested that the European Water Framework Directive from 2000 has us not dredging and letting natural environments flourish to the disregard of what humans need to do to prevent flooding.
If that is the case, then the EU may have a part to play.
I'd quite like to find out, the trouble is the entrenched camps bunker down and we remain fairly uninformed.
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>> I'd quite like to find out, the trouble is the entrenched camps bunker down and
>> we remain fairly uninformed.
>>
This is a few years old but it's still relevant. There's a link to the full report. The pitt review i think it's called.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7472813.stm
Is that the sort of thing you are looking for?
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>> Is that the sort of thing you are looking for?
ish....
There's not a lot re routine maintenance and who has been neglecting it.
Where I live, a culvert opposite me regularly blocks in the winter. I go out about once a week and clear it in three different places.
In fairness, South Hams District Council has had a number of crews out this winter doing major maintenance on gullies and drain clearance... I've seen them when out and about in my van and sat in the minor queues when they've had 'Stop' boards. First time in the 3 years that I've been down here though.
If stuff is neglected, there will be problems.
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One man's view on the flooding. As it's by Moonbat and in the Grauniad, I dare say there is a left leaning agenda, but it's an interesting read.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/29/deluge-farmers-flood-grouse-moor-drain-land?CMP=share_btn_fb
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Cousin rang today he lives in the lowlands.He sounded a bit worried all the flooding on the television in the U.K.
The town Groningen is having problems a lot of money is to be spend on more flood defences.
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>> One man's view on the flooding. As it's by Moonbat and in the Grauniad, I
>> dare say there is a left leaning agenda, but it's an interesting read.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/29/deluge-farmers-flood-grouse-moor-drain-land?CMP=share_btn_fb
Is farming and forestry practices responsible for flooding? No, are they one of the many underlying causes? yes. Whatever way you want to colour this you have to look to the sky and comment on the triple the average monthly rainfall, arriving over just a few days.
People seem to be ignoring that, mostly because they can't blame someone.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 30 Dec 15 at 22:10
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Well it's no surprise that average monthly rainfall does not normally cause floods, or that monthly rainfall is not always average.
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>> Well it's no surprise that average monthly rainfall does not normally cause floods, or that
>> monthly rainfall is not always average.
Yeah lets ignore the root cause shall we?
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>>Video here of how it all works
>>www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35196347
Um, what happens if e'e gets a power cut.
^_^
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>> Um, what happens if e'e gets a power cut.
If you've spent £20K on flood defences, you'd have a generator, surely?
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>> >> Um, what happens if e'e gets a power cut.
>>
>> If you've spent £20K on flood defences, you'd have a generator, surely?
>>
Probably twp or three.
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....the Environment Agency spent a damn sight more in York and reputedly didn't get the electrics right.
;-)
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>>If you've spent £20K on flood defences, you'd have a generator, surely?
He stated that the pumps cut in automatically, even if they (the owners) are not there, so it would have to be a fairly sophisticated set up for the gennie to cut in too, which can be done of course.
One of my gable walls is covered by 2 metres [in height] of wet earth which, I know is a no no!!
I checked it out thoroughly before I purchased the property [I don't do surveyors] and found the inside of said wall to be totally dry.
It still is now almost 5 years later, so properties which are liable to moderate flooding can be protected from water ingress to a certain extent - if the money is spent.
Perhaps the gov could make 100% grants available for folk who haven't got access to the necessary green folding stuff. Sure it would cost BIG time, but we are the worlds third largest economy.
Interesting article:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/money-s-no-object-for-flood-defences-unless-they-re-too-expensivve-a6792376.html
Last edited by: Dog on Fri 1 Jan 16 at 13:48
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>>Sure it would cost BIG time, but we are the worlds third largest economy.
Which is trillions in debt and living beyond its means.
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>>Which is trillions in debt and living beyond its means.
How is it then that we can find the money for all these wars?
"For the cost of the Iraq war we could've ended world poverty for 30 years"
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>> >>Which is trillions in debt and living beyond its means.
>>
>> How is it then that we can find the money for all these wars?
>>
I don't think we are in 'trillions' of debt. Most western countries are in a similar position.
We (as in the uk) didn't really spend that much in iraq when you look at how much the government spends each year.
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>> "For the cost of the Iraq war we could've ended world poverty for 30 years"
Except of course we couldn't.
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>>We (as in the uk) didn't really spend that much in iraq when you look at how much the government spends each year.
>>Except of course we couldn't.
The most recent major report on these costs come from Brown University in the form of the Costs of War, which totalled just over $1.1 trillion.
As of March 2006, approximately £4.5 billion had been spent by the United Kingdom in Iraq
Official calculations stated that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined cost £20.3 billion (up to but not beyond June 2010).
However, according to a book published in 2013, summations for the UK war in Afghanistan came to £37bn.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War
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>> However, according to a book published in 2013, summations for the UK war in Afghanistan came to £37bn.
How much of those are fixed costs that would have occurred anyway? Soldiers and airmen are paid whether they are in combat or peeling spuds, vehicles and ordnance are used in exercises etc etc. It's easy to pluck figures out of the air without taking the full picture into account.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Jan 16 at 22:58
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As of March 2006, approximately £4.5 billion had been spent by the United Kingdom in
>> Iraq Official calculations stated that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined cost £20.3 billion (up to
>> but not beyond June 2010).
>>
>> However, according to a book published in 2013, summations for the UK war in Afghanistan
>> came to £37bn.
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War
>>
Exactly not much at all. Compare that to the total amount spent by the government over the same period. They would have spent trillions of pounds over that period.
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He stated that the pumps cut in automatically, even if they (the owners) are not there, so it would have to be a fairly sophisticated set up for the gennie to cut in too, which can be done of course.
An auto cut in system is not very complicated to engineer. The ones in BBC TV and Radio transmitter stations used to be absurdly and needlessly complicated, but I like the system that NTL (National Transcommunications Limited) started installing in commercial transmitting stations. For sites that weren't big enough to justify a permanent installation, there is a socket to feed power from a generator into the site. I suspect they also fitted a switch to isolate the main feed so the grid wasn't back fed (a really silly thing to do) and probably an indicator lamp for when the grid feed is restored.
Biggest problem with back-ups though is making them reliable, and ensuring they work when required. As a rule, a back-up generator system needs to be run once a month on a representative load until properly up to temperature; say an hour.
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>> He stated that the pumps cut in automatically, even if they (the owners) are not
>> there, so it would have to be a fairly sophisticated set up for the gennie
>> to cut in too, which can be done of course.
>>
Sophisticated? no every computer room in the country has one. For these pumps You dont even need continuous power, so no battery intermediate stage, just straight from power cut to genny start,
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>> Biggest problem with back-ups though is making them reliable, and ensuring they work when required.
Big London police stations have back up generators. They often didn't work when needed.
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I could fill a book with stand by power tales of woe. The names of some of the victims would surprise you
Probably not on second thoughts
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We've got dozens of them at work. They're probably about 30 years old i'd say, each one is about the size of a small car i suppose.
Not had to use them much but they seem fairly reliable. Although i don't think they are run as often as once a month more like once or twice a year.
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Finally a dry day. Colder than of late, biting wind on the tops. Rain expected this evening, increasingly wet over the next 48 hours.
Normal service resumed
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Rain all day in far-North Notts. (In fact we identify with South Yorkshire rather than Nottinghamshire)
Horrid & breezy, too.
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It eased off at dusk but was bucketing down most of the day. All watercourses gurgling and water pouring past the house down the slope.
You wouldn't be squelching about on the grass in elegant white loafers, even muddy ones like mine.
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Current flooding - MD
