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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 11 Mar 16 at 01:27
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You need to read the entire article, not just the bit in big letters at the top..
"By Brexit, I understand not a complete severing of all ties with our European neighbours, but rather a serious attempt to renegotiate a proper bilateral treaty with the rest of the EU that recognises the common interests of both sides."
Hardly going to satisfy your hatred of all things foreign, now is it.
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Isn't it obvious that no-one in his right might thinks Brexit means severing all ties? The point has been well made that there is considerable trade with the EU.
Maybe we should all carry on reading.
"...In fact, subsequent to a Leave referendum result, no changes would be noticed for several years as treaty negotiations took place, with the rest of the EU desperate for agreement, since they sell so much more to us than we to them...
"...the suggestion that the EU does “not really mean to aim for ever-closer union†is contradicted by the history of the Common Market since we joined in 1973. Those who took the aims of the EU elite at their word have been proved right. Whatever soothing words fellow governments may throw at us in David Cameron’s renegotiations, the main power to centralise lies with the European Court, the European Parliament and the EU Commission. All of them have displayed the same determination to centralise power in the EU. They will roll over Cameron’s piece of paper...
"...the positive pro-EU economic arguments ... are truly astonishing. The research that I have done on the European economy over the past few decades points in exactly the opposite direction. The EU is a Customs Union that erects a tariff and non-tariff wall around EU member states that is highly protectionist and raises the prices of protected goods, including agriculture and manufactures. This implies that, far from being a free-market paradise, the EU market has prices well above world market prices and, in so doing, twists the shape of our economy towards these protected goods and away from its best shape. We produce more of what we are worst at and less of what we are best at, while our consumers have to pay excessive prices. Also, because we buy more from the rest of the EU than we sell to them at these inflated prices, some of this price excess goes straight into the pockets of industry in the rest of the EU. This loss of free trade costs us, overall, about 4pc of GDP....
"...It is clear that our “establishment†is keen to bamboozle the common man out of self-government with fallacies about economics. The truth is that UK citizens will not only regain their political freedom outside the EU but they will also be a lot better off."
I'm not prepared at the moment to assume a material economic upside, but Minford is right IMO to say that the government in particular is seriously, and transparently to me, overplaying its hand.
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>> Isn't it obvious that no-one in his right might thinks Brexit means severing all ties?
What do *you* think Roger and his ilk want? A better agreement or all ties severed? Though I take your point about such a point of view and "in his right mind".
>> Maybe we should all carry on reading.
Dunno about "we all" (bit American?) but I already did.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 1 Mar 16 at 21:28
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I don't think Roger is of any ilk, nor do I pretend I know what he think thinks unless he says it.
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Bully for you. I think he's of a very particular ilk and listen to him endlessly stating what he thinks.
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Anyone else kind of bored of this subject already? I am for sure.
One thing I've learned ( a little bit to my dismay but not especially to my surprise ) is that no matter how well one might argue a point of view on an Internet forum or how well evidenced that point is, that almost no one will ever change their mind or accept that they might have been mistaken/misinformed or simply good old fashioned wrong.
I'm just as guilty of that of course, I know what I think and why, and I know how I'll vote. Others for or agin will undoubtedly feel the same about their own points of view. Of course it's a 'discussion' forum and it's healthy to discuss things but be under no illusion that your carefully worded, or plain old vitriolic post will make the slightest bit of difference to any measurable number of its readers intended votes.
Happy typing though !
;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 1 Mar 16 at 22:06
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I don't worry about that. People instinctively counter argue (I do) and very few are capable of saying "you're right, I've changed my mind" even if they have.
What is dispiriting is when people are gratuitously unpleasant about it. I wouldn't hobnob with them in the pub, and I'm thinking I shouldn't do it here.
For those occasions when I have been rude myself, even under provocation, I apologise.
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>> very few are capable of saying "you're right, I've changed my mind"
Oh come now, you're married aren't you?
;-)))
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"Anyone else kind of bored of this subject already?"
The subject .......... possibly, yes - but I do find it amusing when NoFM comes out with "I think he's of a very particular ilk and listen to him endlessly stating what he thinks."
It adds a new dimension to the word 'irony'.
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No one is always right.
I've made posts here that seem on mature consideration to be mistaken or wrong. I seem to remember admitting it sometimes. Strangely though, people often don't notice that, and very seldom admit it when they do.
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>> No one is always right.
>>
>> I've made posts here that seem on mature consideration to be mistaken or wrong. I
>> seem to remember admitting it sometimes. Strangely though, people often don't notice that, and very
>> seldom admit it when they do.
>>
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
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Wages for British workers will rise in the event of a Brexit, head of in campaign says
Interesting that this is coming from some in "remain" group!
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181385/Wages-for-British-workers-will-rise-in-the-event-of-a-Brexit-head-of-in-campaign-says.html
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Wages may well go up but employment protection and "perks" such as paid holidays, maternity and paternity rights may disappear. Turkeys voting for Christmas....
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Wages may well go up but all these blue-collar workers with cleaners will find they no longer have cleaners and other help. Net result will be further mechanisation, resulting, eventually, in fewer blue-collar jobs.
And if we don't have Eastern Europeans plucking cabbages in Lincolnshire, we shall all starve.
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> And if we don't have Eastern Europeans plucking cabbages in Lincolnshire, we shall all starve.
>>
Unless you dislike cabbage in which case it's probably a bonus.
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Our cleaner is from Thailand, so it's not my fault.
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My cleaner is pure born English. She's worked for me for nearly 47 years.
It's her birthday tomorrow....I suppose I'll have to nip to the garage for some flowers !
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>> It's her birthday tomorrow....I suppose I'll have to nip to the garage for some flowers !
Picked by immigrunts no doubt.
:}
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Aren't we missing the point here?
Those who are already here legally will be allowed to stay if we leave the EU.
We can't manage to deport the illegals ones now so we certainly would never get round to sending them all back........so cabbages and cleaners are quite safe.
Pat
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>> Aren't we missing the point here?
>>
>> Those who are already here legally will be allowed to stay if we leave the
>> EU.
Is there any source for that view Pat? I cannot see why their position would be any more certain than that of UK expats in (remaining) EU.
It's just another of the uncertainties where the outies say 'something will turn up'.
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>> Is there any source for that view Pat?
>>
If I may answer that; yes, the source is what happens in the rest of the world:
people you need and/or to stay in your country, you allow them to do so legally.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Thu 3 Mar 16 at 13:40
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Yes, two sources Bromp.
1) See my last sentence.
2) My opinion.
Unique because it's not sourced from anywhere and continually being asked 'Have you a source for that' is a bit tiresome on a forum where opinions are usually welcome.
.....and is the reason I so rarely post mine.
Pat
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>> Unique because it's not sourced from anywhere and continually being asked 'Have you a source
>> for that' is a bit tiresome on a forum where opinions are usually welcome.
I was genuinely trying to ascertain whether it was, as you say, opinion or whether you'd heard somebody on the Out campaign concede that those here would be allowed to stay.
If it's opinion fair enough but if this is a discussion forum then it's fair game to further the discussion by asking you to explain why you hold the opinion. Brian by Pass has provided one supporting rationale; we'll still need Europeans as 'guest workers. That's fair enough but it begs the question of how being out will reduce future numbers if companies like Greencore here in Northampton still cannot get enough sandwich makers or whatever without turning to Hungary.
And while I take your point about threats to lorry drivers in Calais being out won't stop that will it?
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>> I was genuinely trying to ascertain whether it was, as you say, opinion >
>> If it's opinion fair enough<<
I do have some of my own.
if companies like Greencore here in Northampton still cannot get enough sandwich makers or
>> whatever without turning to Hungary.
They will be forced to pay a reasonable wage to do the job, and JSA will/should be stopped for anyone out of work refusing to do it.
>> >> And while I take your point about threats to lorry drivers in Calais being out
>> won't stop that will it?
According to the French it will put the problem on our side of the channel in Kent
Now, let's look at that as a bit of bullsh8t. Surely if that were true the French would be urging us to vote out to get rid of the problem from Calais?
I visited Songatte in 2003 and we led a campaign for the French to deal with the (then) problem instead of ignoring it and encouraging illegals to get to the UK.
They have a duty to return them to the country they entered from, but never do, so why doesn't the UK government insist they put this into practice.
As usual they refused to take any responsibility as they are now, and look where that's got us all.
French gendarmes offer no protection whatsoever and in fact lorry drivers are now being advised to 'run them over' but no-one will give any reassurance that won't lead to a prosecution or imprisonment.
Pat
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They have a duty to return them to the country they entered from, but never do, so why doesn't the UK government insist they put this into practice.
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They probably do try and get the french to do it. However both governments realise that although a treaty somewhere says that's what should happen it's unrealistic to carry it out.
I would think they are being practical, people are going to try and get to the UK. They are going to congregate around the ports. That's what will happen so both governments deal with that reality.
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>>so both governments deal with that reality<<
They don't 'deal' with it though, they pass the buck while ignoring it, and pounce to fine drivers if they are found to have an illegal hanging on their back axles.
Another one had his windscreen smashed this week forcing him to stop, while others climbed on the roof of both the trailer and cab armed with knives.
It's frightening and a lot are now pulling out of that type of work.
When one is killed they will probably start policing the route to the ports as they should be doing now.
Pat
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>>
>> It's frightening and a lot are now pulling out of that type of work.
Why don't they?
I wouldn't do that sort of work.
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>>Why don't they?<<
It's not that easy Duncan it's not so much a job as a way of life that we love.
More to the point though, is why should they have to?
If we walk around carrying knives and batons in this country we get prosecuted.
I see another lorry was found at DIRFT yesterday with 21 illegals on it and people are asking why the driver didn't check it....would you try and turn 21 fit young armed men out of your trailer?
Again, we supplied French Border control with xray machines to be used to check for this....why wasn't it used?
Pat
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>> Again, we supplied French Border control with xray machines to be used to check for
>> this....why wasn't it used?
Perhaps not enough to do each wagon?
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I'm talking about them being there rather than criminality. I agree they should make the roads safe.
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>> Is there any source for that view Pat? I cannot see why their position would
>> be any more certain than that of UK expats in (remaining) EU.
>>
>> It's just another of the uncertainties where the outies say 'something will turn up'.
>>
What did this country do before the EU took over?
I distinctly remember my French teacher being.... French.. and living in Plymouth... trying his very best to teach us....(M. Aubin).
... and in the early 70's we'd have holidays in the South of France or Spain (Frejus / Sitges). There were Brits there working.
I'd hazard a very large guess we'd slip back into something very similar. There are people here currently (who work and live here)... who come from all over the world... that isn't going to change is it?
E.g.... a Brazilian currently working here has managed to get in to an EU country from a non EU one...well in an 'out' scenario, we'd be a non EU country and whatever the Brazilian did, our population could do, can't they?
Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 4 Mar 16 at 10:18
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>> Those who are already here legally will be allowed to stay if we leave the
>> EU.
So it's OK to cling on to assumptions to support an "OUT" case, but not the other way round? OK.
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Am I supporting an OUT case Alanovic?
Have you a source for that?
I'd just like to think that someone would at least tell us the truth before June so I, and many others, can make an informed decision but it isn't going to happen.
They would be well at home on this forum the way both sides are behaving at the moment.
Meanwhile in Calais lorry drivers are being attacked and no-one cares, just as long as the goods get here.
Pat
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>> Am I supporting an OUT case Alanovic?
It is my over-riding impression from your comments and your tone, not just in this thread but over years of contributions, that you will vote OUT.
Which is your prerogative, of course. I get the same impression from Manatee for example, despite his protestations of fence sitting and awaiting some kind of unicorn bearing a definitive, fact based argument written upon tablets of stone, that his mind is made up.
I am of course quite plausibly wrong on both counts, but it's just an opinion, as you yourself say elsewhere.
The truth, in this case, is not out there, so nobody is going to furnish you with it. Crystal balls are not available to anyone. You must make a decision based on your balanced judgement of arguments and predictions, and most of us will deploy a healthy dose of our own prejudices too. Me included.
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>> Turkeys voting for Christmas....
>>
From across the big pond, there is another term worth knowing - "Chicken Little syndrome"
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Thu 3 Mar 16 at 13:40
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I was speaking with a EU colleague (French, living in UK 10 years) of mine. He now thinks it is a good idea to apply for UK citizenship.
Nobody knows what will happen for EU nationals already in the UK. But given UKBA's (in)ability to kick out even the illegals, all we can guess those who are already settled here (5 yrs or more thus achieving permanent resident status) will definitely be allowed to stay. In fact, even non-EU permanent residents are allowed to stay in UK indefinitely.
Anyone who are here based on EU laws for few years are also going to stay in all likelihood.
New rules are likely to be applied to people coming from other countries after UK ceases to be part of EU.
One should not vote thinking "whether I can still get cheap labour to clean my house, fix plumbing etc." but thinking in line "what will happen to my next generation?"
Can NHS cope with unlimited EU migration? Can my children get in chosen schools? Will whole of UK turn in to M25 like traffic? How do we support them when current migrants get older?
Bringing more people to support old people is like a pyramid scheme - it can't continue forever.
England already has one of highest population density among EU countries.
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>>England already has one of highest population density among EU countries.
Indeed, which is the fault of recent immigrants like you. Who now want to make it impossible for further immigrants to arrive.
Talk about pulling up the ladder once you're here...
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>> Indeed, which is the fault of recent immigrants like you.
No - it is the fault of citizens who elected useless MPs who made laws which allowed me to immigrate.
BTW, I came via legal route (over 12 years back so not really "recent") and now a British citizen.
No one owns the UK but citizens here have a duty to make sure the country offers the best for next generation.
People similar to you have now given opportunity to fix the laws but decided not to and rather amuse yourselves by personal attacks to fellow forum members who do not necessarily hold same opinion.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
PS: This is similar to blaming Google/Amazon for not "donating" tax rather than fixing the laws which allows them not to pay the tax.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 3 Mar 16 at 15:03
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Whatever the result of the vote, we will not know the outcome of the vote until we get there. In the same way we don't know what the outcome would have been had the result been for the alternative.
So at this point in time, no-one can say "I'm right, you're wrong!" All we can do is express an opinion based on a range of 'educated' crystal ball gazing.
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"Whatever the result of the vote, we will not know the outcome of the vote until we get there."
This referendum, the consequences of which depend on so many incalculable variables, reminds me of a conversation I had with a good friend when I moved into marketing after some 21 years in the technical department.
He summarised the decision-making process by saying that technical decisions are made by gathering together all the information that is necessary and, if required, going out and gathering more information. In the end, with sufficient data, it is possible to make positive, or even cast-iron decisions to give fairly predictable results.
On the other hand, marketing decisions have to be made with fewer facts and with gut-feelings in an environment which can change unpredictably. He warned me to be prepared to operate outside my comfort zone - and he was absolutely right. It is in this similar environment of uncertainty that the British people are being asked to make the referendum decision - and it is taking them outside their comfort zone.
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Going across next week all by myself.I am taking the Dunkirk route for a change.
Curious what the feeling is on the continent regarding Brexit.
I hope there won't be any bother on the return journey.
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>>I hope there won't be any bother on the return journey
Best pack an Uzi just in case.
You probably wont need it, but one never knows what could kick off in these interesting times in which we live,
or die.
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I doubt you will see any trouble at all in a car Dutchie, we never do at the tunnel, that's why no-one other than the lorry drivers involved on the lorry routes realise just how bad it is..
Pat
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>>People similar to you have now given opportunity to fix the laws but decided not to
Actually you miss my point completely (unsurprisingly). I'm delighted that you're here. And I'm just as delighted to welcome new immigrants to this country. No English person would clean my house the way my Brazilian cleaner does.
I am at a complete loss as to why you - who have only been here 12 years - are so utterly xenophobic. Why would you deny others the benefits you have had?
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>> I am at a complete loss as to why you - who have only been
>> here 12 years - are so utterly xenophobic. Why would you deny others the benefits
>> you have had?
>>
Because unchecked immigration is a great burden on the country?
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>> No - it is the fault of citizens who elected useless MPs who made laws
>> which allowed me to immigrate.
Surely we should be discussing which type of immigrants are being let in.
We need and want those that are beneficial to our country...and... being civilised we should also let in a small number of humanitarian cases.. but other than that, we should have closed doors.
That may well sound harsh, but it's a fact that we are a somewhat crowded small island, when you look at the population density here in comparison with other similar Western countries.
If we are to help those elsewhere with a humanitarian need (and I think we should), then we should take steps, with others, to sort out why they feel the need to up sticks from their own countries.. not just open the doors here.
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>> Indeed, which is the fault of recent immigrants like you. Who now want to make
>> it impossible for further immigrants to arrive.
>>
>> Talk about pulling up the ladder once you're here...
>>
That is unacceptably rude, IMO.
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>> >> Indeed, which is the fault of recent immigrants like you. Who now want to
>> make
>> >> it impossible for further immigrants to arrive.
>> >>
>> >> Talk about pulling up the ladder once you're here...
>> >>
>> That is unacceptably rude, IMO.
>>
It is isn't it.
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>> It is isn't it.
>>
You know what I mean. I'll spell it out.. your comment.
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>>You know what I mean.
I thought so. Surely Movilogo is one of those ghastly immigrants you hate so much.
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>> I thought so. Surely Movilogo is one of those ghastly immigrants you hate so much.
>>
If you are trolling then fair enough I've fallen for it, although I don't really 'get' why people do it.
If not:
For the nth time, I do not hate migrants. I do however, wish to prevent unrestrained migration.
I feel very sorry for those in awful situations, esp the children (as I have young children myself and you think of things from their perspective).. however... we as a country cannot possibly be the answer to many hundreds of thousands or millions of displaced people.
I'd have no problems if we as NATO or similar did something to put right the problems in their country, so they can live a peaceful existence, but do not think opening our doors solves anything at all... and Angel Merkel has learnt this the hard way.
For other migration i.e. those that have skills or close family or whatever legitimate reason for coming here... I have no problem with.
If you genuinely think that people like me 'don't like migrants', then you well and truly have your head in the sand.
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>> >>
>> I'd have no problems if we as NATO or similar did something to put right
>> the problems in their country, so they can live a peaceful existence, but do not
>> think opening our doors solves anything at all... and Angel Merkel has learnt this the
>> hard way.
>>
>> For other migration i.e. those that have skills or close family or whatever legitimate reason
>> for coming here... I have no problem with.
>>
>> If you genuinely think that people like me 'don't like migrants', then you well and
>> truly have your head in the sand.
>>
The trouble with you Westpig, is that you don't understand the rules. Unless you agree that unrestricted immigration only brings us benefits and there are no drawbacks you are a Daily Mail reading racist and a xenophobic swivel eyed loon.
FACT.
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>> One should not vote thinking "whether I can still get cheap labour to clean my
>> house, fix plumbing etc." but thinking in line "what will happen to my next generation?"
Couldn't agree more.
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>> >> One should not vote thinking "whether I can still get cheap labour to clean
>> my
>> >> house, fix plumbing etc." but thinking in line "what will happen to my next
>> generation?"
>>
>> Couldn't agree more.
>>
>>
Me too. I don't want my children growing up in an isolationist state.
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>> Me too. I don't want my children growing up in an isolationist state.
>>
So you'd have them live in a country that's in a right old state?
Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 4 Mar 16 at 10:22
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>> >> Me too. I don't want my children growing up in an isolationist state.
>> >>
>> So you'd have them live in a country that's in a right old state?
>>
When was it ever not? Who is offering guarantees that it will ever be not?
It is my considered judgement that whatever situation we find ourselves in now will be worsened in the short, medium and long terms by an isolationist policy, including leaving the EU, rather than seeking to reform and manage it, or even lead it if we're bold enough, to our advantage from within.
Last edited by: Alanović on Fri 4 Mar 16 at 10:49
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>> It is my considered judgement that whatever situation we find ourselves in now will be
>> worsened in the short, medium and long terms by an isolationist policy, including leaving the
>> EU, rather than seeking to reform and manage it, or even lead it if we're
>> bold enough, to our advantage from within.
>>
...and it is my considered judgement that short term might well be slightly or noticeably worsened, medium term probably not and long term no worse or even better off.
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>> ...and it is my considered judgement that short term might well be slightly or noticeably
>> worsened, medium term probably not and long term no worse or even better off.
So, in you considered opinion, why do we have to suffer noticeably worse to achieve long term no worse?
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...and it is my considered judgement that short term might well be slightly or noticeably worsened, medium term probably not and long term no worse or even better off.
Hmm, definitely Newspeak.
What do you mean you've never read 1984. Put on this pointy hat and sit at the back of the class.
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>> >> Me too. I don't want my children growing up in an isolationist state.
>> >>
But the Outers aren't proposing an isolationist state. The whole point is they want an outward-looking state free to trade with the whole world. If parts of the world don't want to trade, that's their loss.
Trying to shelter in a failed Euro-bureaucracy is the ultimate in misguided isolationism.
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Europe is not all about bureaucracy is it?
Lots' of European companies operate in the UK and vica versa.If that creates worthwhile jobs it can't be that bad can it.
The thing is you are either in this club or you are not.I hope the vote in June will be decisive and not a halfway house.
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>> Europe is not all about bureaucracy is it?
>>
It's not a democracy, so what would you call it?
Dictatorship of the Bureautariat perhaps?
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With an unelected Head of State, and our secondary legislative chamber being unelected, including automatic seats for religious fundamentalists, I'd be wary of throwing the old "undemocratic" insult too far beyond our hypocritical borders.
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And before we get "Yes but HM the Q and the HoL don't actually do anything" as a counter argument, I know they don't. That's great. So let's do away with them and use the money saved to stop the libraries and children's services all over the country being cut.
I'm sure someone who believes we should leave the EU to save the alleged £££ a day on unnecessary bureaucracy and bloated officialdom would be right behind such a scheme. Wouldn't they? Surely.
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>> And before we get "Yes but HM the Q and the HoL don't actually do
>> anything" as a counter argument, I know they don't. That's great. So let's do away
>> with them and use the money saved
Money lost alas because they are a revenue generating profit centre.
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...and they are a part of our English Heritage, all of which we should be preserving at all costs.
Pat
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>> And before we get "Yes but HM the Q and the HoL don't actually do
>> anything" as a counter argument, I know they don't.
>>
Er, yes they do! HoL scrutinize and sometimes reject laws that the lower chamber want to bring in (as countless PMs know to their cost). And the Queen is priceless so far as tourism is concerned, never mind her statutory and historical duties.
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Z and BB, let's not get in to the monarchy thing here, but suffice to say that there are strong sources out there which comprehensively debunk the monarchy/earner/tourist money thing.
Let's leave it there, and agree to disagree.
However, the original point remains: you can not cast aspersions upon the democracy of EU institutions without admitting significant flaws in democracy within the UK, when trying to argue that UK democracy is greater than EU democracy. As a point of principle, you can not use it to justify an "OUT" vote, unless you are also willing to criticise the undemocratic institutions of the UK's constitution.
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>> Z and BB, let's not get in to the monarchy thing here, but suffice to
>> say that there are strong sources out there which comprehensively debunk the monarchy/earner/tourist money thing.
>>
>> Let's leave it there, and agree to disagree.
But you keep bringing up the monarchy.
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>> With an unelected Head of State, and our secondary legislative chamber being unelected, including automatic
>> seats for religious fundamentalists, I'd be wary of throwing the old "undemocratic" insult too far
>> beyond our hypocritical borders.
>>
What tripe.
Firstly the system works very well and has done for quite some time.
Secondly, we are a democracy, one of the world's foremost, one that many, many people across the world look to with respect and probably a degree of jealousy, because of our freedoms.
If a majority of people in this country didn't want the Royal family as Head of State and/or the House of Lords as part of our government.... they'd pipe up, there'd be that put in a political party's manifesto and they'd be gone.
There's no appetite for it, so it hasn't happened.
Even the Aussies and Canadians haven't got rid of Madge and they are completely separate countries.
Undemocratic? I don't think so.
Accept the fact you are in a minority. When or if that changes, so could the Head of State.
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Cliff, I find it hard to reconcile the proposal to leave the world's largest trading block with the suggestion that it would make us more outward looking.
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>> From across the big pond, there is another term worth knowing - "Chicken Little syndrome"
>>
Fear mongering — whether justified or not — can sometimes elicit a societal response called Chicken Little syndrome, described as "inferring catastrophic conclusions possibly resulting in paralysis". It has also been defined as "a sense of despair or passivity which blocks the audience from actions".
Now that I know what it is.. I agree.
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>> Wages may well go up but employment protection and "perks" such as paid holidays, maternity and paternity rights may disappear. Turkeys voting for Christmas....
>>
May they?
I can never recall any politician demanding an end to paid holidays (Which we had long before the EU), and maternity leave was introduced in 1975. It is arguable that paternity leave is both unnecessary and a burden on small and medium sized businesses, though again I don't see any move to abolish it by the UK government.
In any case, we hold a general election every five years. If legislation is proposed by any party in it's manifesto that the voting public don't like they can vote for someone else, and if unpopular legislation is introduced by a government we can boot them out at the next election.
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Interesting speech from Louise Bours MEP in Llandudno recently:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r5gcOFNtbM
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The Tories are going to privatise the NHS eventually anyway, whatever happens. So another red herring from "OUT".
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>> The Tories are going to privatise the NHS eventually anyway, whatever happens.
I don't think so, not in the slightest. They'd never be voted back in again.
Even if there were those in the party that thought that, they'd be incredibly stupid to try that.
Now that I've learnt what it is.. 'Chicken Little syndrome' springs to mind.
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The point, WP, is that the NHS is not pertinent to the IN/OUT EU debate.
OUT are trying to scaremonger.
There may not be a single moment when the Tories slap a "For Sale" sign on the whole NHS and do a deal with Richard Branson/the Qatari Royal Family. But the process has begun, and it will be done furtively, over a lengthy time. Let's face it, I expect they will be in government for another two terms at least. Let's see where we are then. And the result of the EU referendum will have no bearing on it.
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>> 'Chicken Little syndrome' springs to mind.
>>
Why? I didn't say whether it would be a good or bad thing.
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>> The possible impact on the NHS.
>>
>> www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/04/farage-eu-under-threat-if-britain-stays-in-eu/
And the out campaigners are whining about in campaigners scare tactics.
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Nigel Farage, the resign one day, unresign the next.
I'd trust him as much as I trust President Putin. In fact less.
And anyone who quotes him in support is not thinking straight. He is poison to people who don't support UKIP..
Last edited by: madf on Fri 4 Mar 16 at 14:10
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>> Nigel Farage, the resign one day, unresign the next.
>>
>> I'd trust him as much as I trust President Putin. In fact less.
>>
>> And anyone who quotes him in support is not thinking straight. He is poison to
>> people who don't support UKIP..
>>
Because he has been made thus by the biassed media.
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Had a geezer by the name of *Sanjay on the wireless (BBC Radio Cornwall) earlier.
Reckons he's a Cornish Indian (haha!) I had to larf, like. Triffic geezer (a chef in Truro) he has every right to call himself a Cornish Indian of course, and (I can assure you) he is very welcome in Cornwall ... as are the English
(most ovvem)
*Means "Victorious"
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Republicans still clacking away remorselessly I see, keen to make our smug monarchy even more boring than it is already by way of decades of political confusion.
Twerps.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/12184219/Business-chief-susp
>> ended-after-coming-out-in-favour-of-Brexit.html
[[[[[ Fixed...Not sure why that's not clickable, try tinyurl.com/z7dmc32]]]]]
In brief the British Chambers of Commerce have suspended their DG for allegedly breaching the organisations neutrality in the referendum. Since Movi hasn't told us why he thinks the story interesting we can only guess.
Conspiracy theory?
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 5 Mar 16 at 11:03
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What are Europe cultural roots? We are all related let's call it the Human race.
We might speak different languages and have different cultural backgrounds.The majority of us want to live in peace have a roof over our heads food and water to survive.
People in war zones are on the move and their country's are destroyed.This has all happened before history always repeats itself.
All this misery is breaking Europe up and the fear factor is setting in.Order out of chaos is usually war which won't benefit any of us.Just my thoughts on what is happening now in the world.
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>> We might speak different languages and have different cultural backgrounds.
People are always pointing out the differences without celebrating the similarities.
Take language for example. Most European languages are less than 1000 years old. Watch a subtitled Scandi drama (The Killing, Trapped, Occupied, those sorts) and you will occasionally hear a phrase in Danish or Icelandic for example which is identical to its English translation. It's like listening to Extreme Geordie.
Culture? Are we seriously suggesting that ours differs significantly from most European countries? That would be perverse indeed.
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>>Culture? Are we seriously suggesting that ours differs significantly from most European countries? That would be perverse indeed.
Rhetorical and ironic, I presume. There are indeed profound differences between Northern, Southern and Eastern cultures within the EU. I think ours is more akin with the first, although my sympathies are more with the Latin way of life prevailing from France south on down.
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Differences are mostly down to the weather, it is amazingly easy to adapt to another European country's culture. Moving further away though brings starker differences and increasing difficulty, with the exception of Anglicised colonies like Canada and Oz.
We are Europeans, there is not great difference between "us" and "them". It's just a hangover from the days when we had to hate them to enable us to go to war against them. Some people still buy the propaganda.
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It depends on your experience;
If you've lived all your life in the West Country than your average Londoner seems like he is from a totally different culture.
It is only if you experience [say] Madrid that you realise the Exeter and London folk are pretty similar and most certainly the same culture.
If you then experienced Afghanistan, then you may feel that the Exeter, London and Madrid folk are also pretty similar.
No doubt if you then met a bloke from Mars you;d feel that all Earth people were pretty similar.
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>> the days when we had to hate them to enable us to go
>> to war against them.
>>
I think hatred was very low on the list of things motivating us to fight other Europeans down the centuries.
I'd say the principal reasons were:
Pursuit of trade
Personal glory and opportunities for prize money or ransoms from capturing rich opponents
Dynastic reasons
Feudal obligations to an overlord
Desire to maintain the balance of power and prevent one continental power from dominating Europe
and rarely, but on at least one occasion decisively, motivation to fight pure evil and secure the continuation of civilisation.
Most European armies up to the 19th century consisted of mercenaries and a rag bag of nationalities and forces from hundreds of smaller states. The allied forces under Werllington's command were a mixture of English, German, Dutch, royalist French, and probably dozens of others too. I don't think people hated the French - they feared Napolean, and they needed the jobs so took the shillings.
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I remember hatred of the French and Germans being quite virulent amongst the hoi polloi in the UK in the 20th Century. It's tailed off recently though, people no longer think it odd if someone cheers the German football team for instance when they're playing Brazilians or somesuch. It was utterly taboo to do so not many decades ago.
I'd loathe to see such attitudes re-emerging.
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"people no longer think it odd if someone cheers the German football team for instance when they're playing Brazilians or somesuch."
It'll be a strange new world when the Jocks cheer on the England team!
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>> It'll be a strange new world when the Jocks cheer on the England team!
>>
I do but I'm a plastic jock really. Mongrel. Never gonna cheer Chelsea on though whoever the opponents are. ;-)
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>> "people no longer think it odd if someone cheers the German football team for instance
>> when they're playing Brazilians or somesuch."
>>
>> It'll be a strange new world when the Jocks cheer on the England team!
Thats a fantasy world. There is NO way jocks in this or any other world would cheer an England football team.
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>>There is NO way jocks in this or any other world would cheer an England football team.
They may do, if they were offered an 'inducement' ... as Cameron discovered during the Scottish independence referen dum.
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>> think hatred was very low on the list of things motivating us to fight other Europeans down the centuries.<<
Surely it was also fear of the 'not understood' that inspired 'hatred'. Before education and general comprehension that other people who spoke a different language were not necessarily 'enemies', it was an easy way for leaders to turn the unknown into the hated. Bit like UKIP? or football opposition?
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>> think hatred was very low on the list of things motivating us to fight other Europeans down the centuries.
Disagree - though it depends on what level. Governments fought for reasons of trade etc. etc. However the man in the street was required to hate his opponent in order to kill him.
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>> the man in the street was required to hate his opponent in order
>> to kill him.
>>
That's the point I was making, although CP does make good arguments against. I expect it was always a mix of the two, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt to have Tommy hating Fritz or Johnny Frog or whoever's trade route was wanted/monarch's cousin had upset someone. I saw a documentary about trench warfare once, the Tommys (Tommies? WDB will advise I'm sure) in that programme certainly wanted to give Fritz a good old thrashing, trousers down. "Blackadder" it was called, I think.
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Should we vote IN/OUT in the E.U Referendum.
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I think it is a YES / NO question rather than an IN/OUT question.
Maybe I am wrong but I thought that was more or less what we have been discussing for the last 4.5 threads and probably will be for at least that many threads between now and the referendum.
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The Fluffster keeps asking that question, or something very similar. In fact, it's been asked by him and so many others in the media there's no point in restating it.
It doesn't really get the discussion anywhere, does it?
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>> Should we vote IN/OUT in the E.U Referendum.
>>
I vote ' shake it all about ' !
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>> Should we vote IN/OUT in the E.U Referendum.
>>
I think we should vote on whether we should vote...
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We should really schedule a meeting to discuss that first.
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Jist as well we're not in it, innit.
:}
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>> EU to grant Turkey visa free access to Schegen zone!
>>
>> www.ft.com/cms/s/0/09eb15d4-e545-11e5-bc31-138df2ae9ee6.html
>>
Can't read that unless I subscribe.
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Starting to wonder why Turkey are still keen on joining the EU. It's not the wealthy elite club it was 10-15 years ago and it's not fixing any of the bigger issues we are all facing is it?
Strikes me that the EU In/Out debate is really missing the point. Most of the major threats to our security are global, namely:
- ISIS wanting to attack;
- ISIS creating a huge wave of migration;
- the global economy barely back on its feet since the GFC of 2008-9 and liable to relapse again imminently;
- China's economy - sustaining half of the world - teetering.
The EU is essentially unable to help the UK tackle any of the above. In fact they will probably contrive to make it worse.
Does the EU have any track record in alleviating any of these woes? I don't think so.
Remember the EU was totally useless in the break-up of the former Yugoslavia barely 20 years ago. A humanitarian crisis on our own doorstep. This one is far bigger.
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/6/16 Volume 4. - Roger.
