It now seems another soldier is subject to investigation over 'mercy killings' in Iraq 13 years ago.
Whist in no way do I wish to judge those who risk their lives on our behalf I am somewhat baffled that with the trend of ex service personnel to write books and go public about their experiences 'warts and all', particularly after the Blackman saga, it would come as no surprise that the powers that be would investigate such activities. Naivety comes to mind.
That old adage comes to mind. 'What goes on tour stays on tour."
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 18 Oct 16 at 10:50
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He might well have anticipated this, the publisher would certainly have. A high risk attempt to boost sales?
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I was reading an online rant somewhere about this today. Just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and some Iraqi soldiers had "put down" some allied soldiery....there would be a hue and cry and demands for Justice. Odd innit.
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>> I was reading an online rant somewhere about this today. Just imagine if the shoe
>> was on the other foot and some Iraqi soldiers had "put down" some allied soldiery....there
>> would be a hue and cry and demands for Justice. Odd innit.
>>
I acknowledge that war is crap, what has been seen, done and experienced by soldiers can be indescribable and that soldiers make mistakes in the heat of the moment.
But who the heck was the soldier to assume that he knew that the victim couldn't be saved and made no attempt to do so?
We must follow the rules of war. They are clearly set out in the Geneva Convention and elsewhere.
If the soldier does not follow the rules then they can expect prosecution as we would prosecute enemy soldiers that contravened laws. To do otherwise is to be hypocritical.
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 19:04
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Does anyone here think that wars are won by playing by the rules ?
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>>Does anyone here think that wars are won by playing by the rules ?
Or that the rules will provide a satisfactory answer to every situation.
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No, but once you abandon any attempt to impose a legal framework and simply say anything goes as long as they are on our side you are descending the path to absolute barbarism.
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>> No, but once you abandon any attempt to impose a legal framework and simply say
>> anything goes as long as they are on our side you are descending the path
>> to absolute barbarism.
>>
Will you remain a hand wringing liberal when bombs are being dropped on your house ?
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>> Will you remain a hand wringing liberal when bombs are being dropped on your house
>> ?
Hmm let me see. Did we shoot captured German airmen who dropped a shed load of bombs on our houses? Nah, don't recall us being called hand wringing liberals either.
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>>Did we shoot captured German airmen who dropped a shed load of bombs on our houses?
In "The Camomile Lawn" Mary Wesley includes an episode in which fishermen "rescued" a shot-down German pilot in WWII by towing him back to port, hence deliberately drowning him. She was not the kind of writer to sensationalise, furthermore she worked in intelligence during the war so her account is likely to be credible.
(The book is in any case worth reading as it shows how liberating the war was in several ways for young people. There was a TV series based on it.)
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>> In "The Camomile Lawn" >>
Good 90's TV series, Jennifer Ehle was very good ...
I reckon Sgt Blackman should be released immediately.
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My mother was an ambulance driver in WW2. The vehicle had a great big Red Cross on its roof. One time she was "chased" by a German aircraft which fired on her moving ambulance destroying it, killing the wounded she had on board and setting her hair on fire.
She never really liked Germans much after that and found it quite hard to cope with the concept when I, decades later, went to work for a German employer and reported back that most of them were actually quite nice people.
Life experiences mould our attitudes I suppose.
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When I took my first contract in Germany, my Grandmother was really upset for me and commiserated at some length.
She never really understand how I could be having so much fun there.
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They had very unclean aeroplanes them Jerry's. :-)
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>>Does anyone here think that wars are won by playing by the rules ?
Of course even our soldiers commit war crimes.
Is it right to shot to kill surrendering soldiers or a pilot ejecting from a downed plane?
Of course it isn't, its murder and should be treated as such. Just because they do it doesn't make it right for us to do it.
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I take it that you have not heard of the WW2 Special Operations Executive, (aka The Ministry of Dirty Tricks) many of their operatives both male and female parachuted into enemy teritory knowing their life expectancy was short. That organisation is credited as the originator of modern black ops.
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>> I take it that you have not heard of the WW2 Special Operations Executive, (aka
>> The Ministry of Dirty Tricks) many of their operatives both male and female parachuted into
>> enemy teritory knowing their life expectancy was short. That organisation is credited as the originator
>> of modern black ops.
They were spies. The Germans shot them. The German spies over here we hung. Either way that's got naff all to do to do with a soldier executing a wounded prisoner.
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>> They were spies. The Germans shot them.
>>
I suggest you do some research into their role with the French resistance in disrupting the activities of the Germans, who also executed any SAS and other commandos they captured.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 20:01
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>> >> They were spies. The Germans shot them.
>> >>
>>
>> I suggest you do some research into their role with the French resistance in disrupting
>> the activities of the Germans, who also executed any SAS and other commandos they captured.
I have. I believe that you will find Violette Reine Elizabeth Szabo was not in the SAS or a commando.
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>> I have. I believe that you will find Violette Reine Elizabeth Szabo was not in
>> the SAS or a commando.
>>
I agree, some where spies and radio operators, but not all by along way.
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Generally speaking, 'war crimes' are only commited by the 'losing side'. How many British military were put on trial after WW2?
There must have been some complete nutcases/incompetents in senior positions - (as in any organisation). The lower ranks were only obeying orders (or not)?
My immediate thoughts turn to Dresden - but a little research will find other examples of excess.
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>> Generally speaking, 'war crimes' are only commited by the 'losing side'. How many British military
>> were put on trial after WW2?
A small number but there were a few, I remember a few from the 8th army's advance up italy. I think it was Italian pows that were shot.
>> My immediate thoughts turn to Dresden - but a little research will find other examples of excess.
Dresden is an interesting one, there were worse examples through the war, but that is one that still attracts a lot of attention.
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>> My immediate thoughts turn to Dresden - but a little research will find other examples
>> of excess.
Dresden was a bombing raid.
Longer and more intensive than many bombing raids, but a bombing raid none the less.
I am old enough to have sat in the air raid shelter, both at home and at school listening to the Germans dropping bombs on me - or firing rockets at me.
Those were bombing raids, so was Dresden.
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>>so was Dresden.
Thems were 1000 bomber raids ditto Lubeck/Hamburg/Hannover etc. etc. We didn't experience anything like that.
Would have done though if Hermann had achieved air supremacy after the Battle of Britain. All's fair in love and war.
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>> >>so was Dresden.
>>
>> Thems were 1000 bomber raids ditto Lubeck/Hamburg/Hannover etc. etc. We didn't experience anything like that.
Perhaps you aren't old enough to have lived in an air raid shelter during The Blitz.
Because that is what it was. In the morning my family and I came out of the shelter at home, I went to school, I spent all day in the shelter, had lessons in the shelter. Came home, spent the evening in the shelter. Slept in the shelter.
Got up the next morning. Repeat.
A very similar scenario during the V1 and V2 raids later in the war.
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>> Perhaps you aren't old enough to have lived in an air raid shelter during The
>> Blitz.
I'm not but am in age group where parents and their contemporaries lived through the war. My Mother remembers Leeds being bombed and my wife's Mother's cousin tells of dealing with incendiaries in the streets of Birmingham.
I'm not in any way diminishing the experience of your generation of Brits but what we delivered onto Germany in the latter half of the war was several orders of magnitude larger. Citizens of the German cities mentioned above, those who lived, wouldn't be going to school or work; their was nothing left.
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I was born in '52 Dunc, but my mother (dad was in mid East) and 4 siblings lived right next to Dewrances (engineering Co.) in Gt. Dover St. S.E.1 = mucho air raids :(
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The Germans' strategy was built around fast moving Blitzkreig. Their bombers, machines like the Heinkel 111 carried around 2-3 tonnes of bombs at most. Roughly equivalent British machines were the Vickers Wellington and Handley Page Hampden.
Heinkels,, together with Dorniers and Junkers 88s delivered a ferocious blow to cities like Coventry and above all London.
The later British four engine bombers Stirling, Halifax and above all the Lancaster were a quantum leap carrying progressively heavier loads, ultimately the ten tonne 'Grand Slam' earthquake bomb. Used against cities they'd carry a mix of high explosive and incendiary bombs.
Whether or not it was justified Dresden, like Lubeck, was not a major military target. Firestorms that literally sucked the oxygen from the atmosphere were something more than just another bomber raid.
Whether they were miltarily justified as a 'means to and end' or war crimes is another question.
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>> Whether or not it was justified Dresden, like Lubeck, was not a major military target.
Twickenham was not a major military target, either.
I don't have any problem. War is a nasty business.
It could be argued that they started it. We finished it.
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>> Twickenham was not a major military target, either.
Errr the naval research station ship tanks. Where Barnes Wallis tested the Bouncing bomb theory.
And lets be honest, there wasn't exactly a shed load of German bombs and shrapnel flying around that area anyway.
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>> >> Twickenham was not a major military target, either.
>> Errr the naval research station ship tanks. Where Barnes Wallis tested the Bouncing bomb theory.
>>
Richmond lock is actually at St Margarets, East Twickenham.
It was apparently a target and my father was in an ARP post nearby.
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>> And lets be honest, there wasn't exactly a shed load of German bombs and shrapnel
flying around that area anyway.
>>
I certainly remember few " bomb sites" in the area.
I was too young to remember the war.
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>>
>> >> Twickenham was not a major military target, either.
>>
>> Errr the naval research station ship tanks. Where Barnes Wallis tested the Bouncing bomb theory.
I understand the tests were carried out at the Road Research Laboratory at Harmondsworth. Which is not in Twickenham. Later, larger scale tests were carried in Wales.
However, I think we are dancing on the head of a pin.
Last edited by: Duncan on Mon 17 Oct 16 at 11:24
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These things happened 70 years go. Time to move on possibly?
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>> These things happened 70 years go. Time to move on possibly?
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it :)
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I didn't say forget it but living in the past is a national characteristic that perhaps we should all try to avoid.
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Perhaps you would like to knock Armistice Day on the head too.
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>> Perhaps you would like to knock Armistice Day on the head too.
>>
No I wouldn't.
Inevitably though at some time in the future when all those who lived through WW2 have passed it will have a much lower profile.
Don't get me wrong, I like reading history. I'm reading two history books at the moment, one on the second Schleswig War and one on the life of King John. It is debatable however how much we can learn from history or indeed whether we ever do
I just sometimes feel that we British are more comfortable wallowing in the past than facing up to the future. There's very little to be gained endlessly going over the rights and wrongs of the second world war
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 17 Oct 16 at 14:44
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What a past though.
I know, as the Beest was kind enough to point out, that Britain is called Great to differentiate it from Brittany but, tis great IMO, when one looks back at its history.
This is what I'm trying to read at the moment. I say trying because I'm attempting to read it at night in bed.
Only problem is though, before I've even read two pages, I'm orf to the land of nod.!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning
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>> I understand the tests were carried out at the Road Research Laboratory at Harmondsworth. Which
>> is not in Twickenham.
They were carried out at what is now the national Physical Laboratory which is not in Harmondsworth. The larger scale test were carried out at Reculver on the Kent coast.
And its nothing to do with dancing on the head of a pin, compared to Docklands, Coventry, etc, Twickenham was a relative haven of calm and tranquility so to bring the Twickenham carpet bombing war crime in as justification for Dresden is fatuous.
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There is a big (possibly the biggest in the UK) ship testing tank in Haslar, Gosport, it had wave makers on two sides and could produce all manner of surface conditions. It was an Admirality Research Establishment in my day but is run by QinetiQ now. They put divers in the tank to retrieve any model submarines that go astray.
www.qinetiq.com/services-products/maritime/platform-readiness/Pages/maritime
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 18 Oct 16 at 09:06
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Deliberately targeting civilians is a crime.
Mother in law was a kid when she went out to play in the garden of their house on a sunny afternoon.
A lone German raider / bomber flew over and dropped a few bombs. She survived, others didn't. The house and a couple of others were destroyed.
A while later, whilst playing with a group of kids on one of the local hills they were strafed by a fighter. Luckily no one was hurt.
I know if I was in the forces, I would have no trouble targeting a military target, be it a military installation or factory, but to deliberately bomb or strafe civilians - that goes against all that I believe in.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 17 Oct 16 at 10:37
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>>I am old enough to have sat in the air raid shelter, both at home and at school listening to the Germans dropping bombs on me - or firing rockets at me.
Me too except that I only heard one rocket, late in the war and after we had moved to Norwich. It was a V1 and it puttered along just south of the city before the motor cut out. There was no explosion and I imagine it is buried in the marshes thereabouts. I had no idea V1s operated so far north.
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"Does anyone here think that wars are won by playing by the rules ?"
"Or that the rules will provide a satisfactory answer to every situation."
No
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 20:10
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> But who the heck was the soldier to assume that he knew that the victim
>> couldn't be saved and made no attempt to do so?
I think it would be safe to assume from his position, experience and situation they were in, he could make that call.
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Not knowing the nature of the operation the other factor is resources, particularly availability of casualty evacuation and immediate medical supplies.
Imagine you are out on a prolonged operation with limited medical supplies, no emergency casualty evacuation (helicopter) or difficult due to terrain. Do you expend your medical supplies on an enemy with clearly no chance of survival or do you save them in case they are required by your team.
Difficult call.
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Not playing by the rules is one thing, gobbing off about it later and then being surprised that the matter will be investigated is quite another.
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Not playing by the rules is one thing, gobbing off about it later and then being surprised that the matter will be investigated is quite another.
Yup, 13th commandment and all that, 'thou shalt not get caught'.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 22:36
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"Not playing by the rules is one thing, gobbing off about it later and then being surprised that the matter will be investigated is quite another."
As alluded to when I resurrected the thread :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 16 Oct 16 at 23:42
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This wasn't just 'gobbing off'. Book deals are involved. Stupidity and greed was involved more like it. And I refer to the book when I say stupid and greed.
Maybe the person in question did do someone suffering 'a favour' but I'm not sure about that. I will never be in a similar situation. But to write about it....? Madness.
There's a few who wrote generic SAS type books with realistic content... but this is like Trump writing an autobiography and covering his misdemeanours (alleged that they are).
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 17 Oct 16 at 01:09
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I'll re-phrase it then. Book deal or not he should have kept his big mouth shut - end of.
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Original case has been to Criminal Cases Review Commission. They have referred it back to Court Martial Appeal Court in light of new evidence:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/06/marine-jailed-for-killing-afghan-insurgent-could-have-conviction-quashed
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His treatment is a warning to others to keep quiet.
From the OP.
That old adage comes to mind. 'What goes on tour stays on tour."
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 7 Dec 16 at 11:43
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Blackman's appeal allowed. Verdict of Murder quashed, Manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibility substituted.
www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/r-v-blackman-judgment-150317.pdf
Further hearing, on date to be fixed, will consider sentence.
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As I've said no surprise, his sentence will be nibbled away at until he's out soon. Probably this year or next.
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According to the Telegraph report he has had a number of film offers.
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Being an ex-Bootneck myself, my sympathies in this case are entirely with the Sgt.
Now, the next step should be that he receives his hard-earned military pension.
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Blackman did what tens of thousands of soldiers have done - and are still doing - over the years, he was just unlucky that virtually every action is recorded these days. With my hand on my heart I could say I'd probably done the same thing myself and not lost a second's sleep over it.
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Shame on the pair of you.
Pat
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>> Shame on the pair of you.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Not a bit of it.
They were dealing with people who would torture them for pleasure and then execute them should they fall into their hands. I'm certainly not going to get all holier than thou by wagging my finger at a soldier who faced that prospect every day of his tour and put one away, wounded or not.
When you are fighting people who laugh at the Geneva Convention you cannot be expected to behave like a saint yourself.
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>>When you are fighting people who laugh at the Geneva Convention you cannot be expected to >>behave like a saint yourself.
He should not have done it.
I can totally understand why he did it and sympathise with his situation.
I can imagine myself wanting to do the same, but would hope that I wouldn't.
We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard otherwise we all spiral down to the lowest levels of depravity in war.
He should never have been in a position to be so shell shocked or suffering from so much combat fatigue, but then we have an under funded army and a shortage of troops.
I think the murder charge was too much, manslaughter seemed much more appropriate given the battlefield situation.
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RoR is pointing out the inevitability of situations/cases like this. Acts like this rarely carried out by anything other normal men placed into abnormal situations, the normal ebb and flow of life replaced with endless cycles of fear and violence.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 28 Apr 17 at 17:31
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>> RoR is pointing out the inevitability of situations/cases like this. Acts like this rarely carried
>> out by anything other normal men placed into abnormal situations, the normal ebb and flow
>> of life replaced with endless cycles of fear and violence.
>>
Exactly.
Place a man in a situation he had no control over, where his life is constantly in danger and he is living on the edge of his nerves for most of the day if you like - but don't then expect him to behave like a choirboy for the whole of his tour of duty.
it's war, crap happens.
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What he has done is make the job harder and more dangerous for those who follow him.
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Sympathy For The Devil - Sgt Colin Maclaclan - sooty123
