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The end is nigh..or maybe not. Onward discussion
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 1 Aug 18 at 10:32
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let us start with real thread drift -
As Zero said
I like Bratwurst Brötchen in a Berlin Christmas market, but for an english breakfast it has to be a british sausage, dont care what shiesse they put in it.
At least the French put real shiesse in them, I can do no better than quote:
It's Andouillette and, not to put too finer point on it, it absolutely stinks and we're not talking good stink. It reminds me of the gentlemen's toilet in a Hanoi cafe I used to frequent. There was no toilet, just a wall. Enough said. And that's what Andouillette smells like. A bad toilet.
It all makes sense when you know what it's made from - a pig's colon. As Wikipedia puts it: "The aroma is due to the pig colon (chitterlings) utilised in the sausage, which incorporates some of the same compounds that contribute to the odour of excrement."
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I rather like a good Andouillette but my friend Ian calls it 'bottom sausage'.
The French are surprised when the Brits order it 'Vous Connaisez Andouillette' in a quizzical tone is a common reaction.
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Getting his retaliation in first...
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You have to wonder what JRM et al are playing at. JH is saying we'll all blame the EU if there's no deal. JRM now saying it will take more than a generation to benefit.
Are they hoping to blame everyone other than themselves?
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Pretty much what Jeremy Hunt was saying to day. If there’s no deal it all the EU’s fault and the British public will hate the EU for a a generation. Nothing to do with us.
“The foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt, has said there is a risk of the UK leaving the EU without a deal because of stalling by Brussels negotiators and that British views of Europe could sour as a result.
On his first overseas trip since replacing Boris Johnson, he claimed there was now a very real threat of ending up with no deal by accident, which could alter British public attitudes toward the EU for a generation.â€
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Nothing to do with how badly the government has handled it.
Right from the outset the EU will have said there needs to be a solution for NI/ROI and you can't just have a trade deal because it's linked with the single market, custom's union, freedom of movement etc.
We want to leave but we can't have what we want so we are now threatening to not pay the exit bill, we'll blame them.... It's going really well then.
Give it a month or so and the government will implode or we have a new PM so then end up with an election. Doing so will trigger us to request article 50 to be extended....
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 23 Jul 18 at 22:56
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Actually the EU reportedly said that the only two valid reasons for an extension were a General Election or a second referendum
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>> JRM now saying it will take more than a generation to benefit. recover.
Fixed it, you had a misspelling in there.
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Is it just me who hates this habit of copying someone else's post and substituting their word for a crossed-out one, and then saying "fixed it for you" ?
Whatever one's views on the substance of the original sentence and its replacement, it just strikes me as smug, arrogant, disrespectful, and a very old unoriginal joke that has had its day.
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>> Is it just me who hates this habit of copying someone else's post and substituting
>> their word for a crossed-out one, and then saying "fixed it for you" ?
Yes
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>> Is it just me who hates this habit of copying someone else's post and substituting
>> their word for a crossed-out one, and then saying "fixed it for you" ?
>>
No, dosen't bother me a bit, a good way to make a point and can sometimes be quite funny too.
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>> It's just me who hates this habit of copying someone else's post and substituting
>> their word for a crossed-out one, and then saying "fixed it for you" ?
>>
...there, fixed it for you.
;-)
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It is a bit hackneyed and probably best avoided. Mind you so is the use of the word “hate†for things you mildly dislike. :-)
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>> Mind you so is the use
>> of the word “hate†for things you mildly dislike. :-)
>>
How do you know that? I have violently irrational hatreds of all sorts of things. :)
Ok, it is just me.
I now realise that it is a witty and telling debating point, and neatly concludes a closely reasoned argument with devastating effect.
I hadn't realised that the simple device of merely crossing out what one's opponent has written and substituting one's own words was so powerful an argument for one's own point of view.
If I knew how to do it I'd make more use of it myself. :)
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It wasn't an attempt to smack down an "opponent", more of a reinforcement of the statement in the original post by rtj70 (strong remainer) by another remainer.
And I'd be careful of flinging smileys around as NoFM2R really hates those.
(_8^(|)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 12:24
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>> I hadn't realised that the simple device of merely crossing out what one's opponent has
>> written and substituting one's own words was so powerful an argument for one's own point
>> of view.
>> If I knew how to do it I'd make more use of it myself. :)
Clearly you have never chaired meetings or been minute taker in same........
Edit, or been a senior civil servant
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Jul 18 at 14:57
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"How do you know that? I have violently irrational hatreds of all sorts of things"
No, that just doesn't conform to my mental image of you.
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So we have went from an extra £350m a week to talk of having to stockpile food.
If ever you needed evidence that nobody had a clue as to what this vote involved in reality!
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Yep. Going well isn't it.
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>> So we have went from an extra £350m a week to talk of having to
>> stockpile food.
>>
>> If ever you needed evidence that nobody had a clue as to what this vote
>> involved in reality!
Letter in FT from former Chair of Lloyds of London:
Never in over 50 years of working life have I seen the UK facing such an abject future, casued by the complete failure of our political establishment to govern, to communicate clearly with the public and, most importantly, to be honest with the electorate. We have many senior politicians who are seemingly consumed with their own ambition and vanity, with little regard for the best interests of the country.
It is clear that either a negotiated settlement along the lines of the Chequers agreement or an exit from the EU with no deal are both going to result in the UK becoming a much poorer and less influential country than anybody was led to believe during the appallingly conducted referendum campaign.
As a businessman, recently retired as chairman of Lloyd's of London, I can see all too clearly the consequences for the economy, for employment and for the provision of basic services.
Apart from the effect on manufacturing industry and the services sector (the latter being sacrificed by the government on the altar of Brexit), there will be disruption to the provision of the basic public services such as agriculture, healthcare and air transport.
We are constantly being told by the Brexiters it will all be fine. We will keep our sovereignty and we will be able to negotiate our own trade deals with ease. This is fanciful. Lloyd's is the most global of all British institutions. Personal experience tells me that negotiating overseas rights is a long and painful process. If we are trying to do it as a small economy, the leverage we have is limited and far less than operating as a trade bloc, which is the EU. We would lose all the EU trading rights with third countries.
It is also worth remembering that 44 per cent of our trade is with the EU. The great majority of UK economy is in the services sector - financial services alone contribute 12 per cent of gross domestic product.
I agree with many of the warning comments made in recent weeks by many business leaders. But almost all of these comments are coming from overseas businesses. It is high time that UK business spoke up and galvanised the public to understand the true realities of what the country is facing.
There also appears to be a silent majority of MP's from each of the major parties who seem terrified of putting their heads above the parapet. They need to co-operate, or even coalesce, to provide the public with sensible government. The case for remaining in the EU needs to be restated and constrasted with the now much clearly alternative. Membership of the EU has drawbacks, but overall the benefits in terms of trade, security and fellowship overwhelm the narrow shortsighted nationalism espoused by those who wish to return to an Edwardian age.
Of course there needs to be a second referendum once the route that we are persuing becomes clear. That woute will bear no resemblance to the picture painted by our politicians at the time of the first one.
John Nelson
Chairman, Lloyd's of London 2011-17
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Pfft what do experts know.
I trust our politicians to have my interests at heart.
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*sigh*
Don't worry, we have a red moon on Friday night so the world will come to an end before that.
Pat
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I made the above comment in the Airbus thread in reply to rtj's post saying
>>You'll have more of a chance then after Brexit. Just in time will go out of the window.<<
Just for clarity.
Pat
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Many internet forums prohibit political debates/discussion. I now think they are right.
Political debates can seriously affect how forum members behave with each other (one someone has divulged his/her political opinion).
In a very large forum (with thousands of members) the effect is diluted in numbers. But in a small forum like this it can have devastating effect.
So, my suggestion to mods
1. Stop allowing political discussion.
or
2. Split Brexit thread into 2 parts - one for pro-leave and another for pro-remain.
Of course this is just a suggestion and mods will decide what's best for the forum.
I don't think even after years of argument leavers and remainers could not convince each other why their logic is the best.
Brexit debate has brought out some nasty reactions, personal attacks from members who I think all are very decent people. Somehow on this topic often very high emotion gets involved and flame starts. Before house is burnt down in the flame, it is best to put it off in time.
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In case you didn't know I am a Remain voter. The mods don't really make the "policy" here, though really there isn't much of that.
IMO it feels like some on the Leave side seem to want to suppress or stymie discussion they find disagreeable, whether it's on internet forums or by doing away with the House of Lords. I think that is undesirable. So on that basis, for me, idea 1 has no merit.
Idea 2 also fails because there is nothing to stop people from both sides contributing to each thread. And of course a thread where we all sat agreeing with each other would be somewhat uninteresting.
People here have the choice whether they read/contribute to a thread. People are also mostly very regular here and know each others' online characters and traits. This doesn't excuse some of the worst and more offensive behaviour but we have been known sometimes to moderate this!!
Lastly I would agree that all the people here are decent people. Some more decent than others of course :-)
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Well said Movi
Well said Smokie.
So, how about you two meet in the middle then and agree to stop anyone from attacking the poster, instead of the post, whatever their political leanings?
That would make for a much more civilised debate.
Pat
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I pop in and take a look around this forum maybe once a week (it only takes a minute to scan a week's worth of posts).
I very, very rarely contribute anymore which is shame, but regulars will know why.
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>>I very, very rarely contribute anymore which is shame, but regulars will know why.
I'm a regular and I have no idea.
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The other alternative is of course to ignore personal attacks and simply respond with a well argued case supporting your viewpoint .
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 12:10
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I think you have that completely back to front CG.
There are plenty of places to discuss Brexit and anything else where personal attacks are forbidden.
From my experience ignoring bad behaviour just indicates to the person can do it more and more unchallenged and it's certainly borne out on here.
Would you treat a small child that way?
You forget it isn't just the two people involved, many people don't like reading that sort of thing and, finding it in so many posts, soon don't bother reading at all.
As to why I don't bother, why would I? Once bitten and all that.
It's far easier just to ignore people I don't think worthy of acknowledging.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 13:10
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>>Would you treat a small child that way?
Its called extinction in behavioural psychology and it certainly doesn't work in the classroom.
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My perception is that FM2R' s comments have been considerably moderated recently all though he seems unable to resist the occasional barbed attack. His contributions are usually well informed and have an intellectual integrity which usually makes them worth reading.
Everybody being nice to one another is actually rather boring whether on this forum or on Question Time! I'm sure we are all grown up enough to a take a bit of criticism, especially bearing in mind the average age of posters here!
I as regards the Brexit debate generally there is certainly a lack of coherent argument on here from the leave side as to what benefits they are expecting to achieve fom Brexit and how the issues around our departure will be resolved. I would like to hear more reasoned debate from this quarter. I
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 14:40
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>> and have an intellectual integrity
Thank you very much. Praise indeed.
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Perhaps we should all read the forum rules again.
Certainly this part.
>>The following posts or content are not allowed:
1) Personal insults
2) Content likely to incite religious or racial intolerance
3)Libellous content
4) Content which may be a contempt of court
5) Crude or sexually explicit content
6) Copyright protected content
7) Advertisements - (see our Naming and Shaming policy) There is a difference between advertising and sharing a positive experience!
8) Profanity
9) Impersonating content
10) Harassing content
Note what is at the top of the list?
I think that is proof you have it back to front CG!
Pat
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It is proof that you have a bee in your bonnet about this. Try to move on.
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2, 3, 4, 6, 9 and 10 are potentially illegal and worse than 1 imo.
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Hang on CG, it was you who started with the advice to ignore what we ALL signed up for when joining this forum, not me!
Lygonos, that all depends on where you're sitting and I can honestly say I've never seen you sitting in the position myself and many others, who no longer post here, have been many times.
Presumably, it was the most important to spring to mind when the rules were composed yet saying &h*t get's you/me hung drawn and quartered now:)
Says a lot about the standards of youth (Mods) these days!
Pat
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>>saying &h*t get's you/me hung drawn and quartered now:)
Swearing doesn't bother me, and I am a very heavy user of all forms of swearies but there are a few oddballs out there that find it quite distressing.
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I do agree, and coming from my work background I soon learned not to be offended.
However, I have to say it's much appreciated when people do manage to curb it if I'm around.
Call me old-fashioned, but I still don't like to hear it from a female though.
Pat
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>>Call me old-fashioned, but I still don't like to hear it from a female though
I actually 'LOLed' recently when a young adult female patient came in and told me she had a "pain in my fud*"
But dropping C-bombs is indeed a bit unladylike...
*modestly rude Scottish slang for lady parts.
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Yes. I know......have done my time battling with Goods In and security up there.
Glasgow worst, Edinburgh next but anywhere north of that is delightful!
Pat
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>> The other alternative is of course to ignore personal attacks and simply respond with a
>> well argued case supporting your viewpoint .
I suspect that you have put your finger on the problem.
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>>Many internet forums prohibit political debates/discussion. I now think they are right.
This is how I view your post:
You have made numerous additions to this thread.
You don't like the way the discussion is going so you now want to stop it.
This is a libertarian country which encourages free speech and debate.
To close down the discussion because it is not what you like is akin to despotism.
The forum is privately owned so the owner can make their own decisions in the end but until they do I say keep the discussion open and enjoy the diversity that it encourages.
Last edited by: Driver on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 18:28
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We often refer them this place as our local pub.
If I went into my local pub now and I still had folk trying to justify what Farage, Boris and JRM were saying I would be tempted to slap them.
Of course I wouldn’t but I just would not engage in any further conversation with them. About anything.
If they can’t see past then by now, what’s the point in any dialogue ?
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>>Of course I wouldn't but I just would not engage in any further conversation with them. About anything.
Not even Scottish Independence?...
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That’s a different topic and to be fair anyone supporting Brexit really isn’t worth discussing the merits of independence with.
I remember the day after the Brexit vote talking to a colleague. He said Bobby was I right to vote to leave? I said well that depends on your reasons for voting leave.
He said, we’ll see over in the west end of glasgow, all the roofs are being re done and most of the guys doing it are polish. That’s not right is it?
I said well maybe that’s cos the Scottish guys are doing work in Poland. That’s how the EU works?
Ach at the end of the day, I just fancied a change. He said.
Under no circumstances should Brexit be allowed to happen without a further referendum based on a factual deal.
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>> Under no circumstances should Brexit be allowed to happen without a further referendum >> based on a factual deal.
>>
Bobby do you honestly believe with the press, politicians and large numbers of public we have, that any other referendum could be based on facts.
Any more than another Scottish independence referendum could.
There are too many self interested, scheming, ignorant individuals and interests involved.
The genie is out of the bottle and another referendum will not put either one back.
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Someone my wife knows said today that if there is no Brexit deal it is the EU to blame. Apparently not the UK for deciding to leave but unwilling to agree an acceptable way forward, e.g. a solution for the NI//RoI border issue. That determines a big part of any deal.
Instead we suggest using a non-existent technology solution with no details.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 25 Jul 18 at 23:11
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Not sure it matters very much, but who knows.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44957901
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Complete and utter chaos.
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>> Complete and utter chaos.
>>
With a capital F
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>> Complete and utter chaos.
>>
Is that like a BLT?
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>> >> Complete and utter chaos.
>> >>
>>
>> Is that like a BLT?
>>
...no, more like Eton Mess......
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/44964521
"The EU's chief negotiator has ruled out allowing the UK to collect customs duties on its behalf, a key UK proposal for post-Brexit trade.
"Michel Barnier said the UK wanted to "take back control" of its money, law and borders - but so did the EU."
Oh. What now I wonder?
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Just not leave ? Accept that it's a monumentally difficult if not impossible task. What a complete mess.
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The French have already said we can forget about Brexit and stay in at existing term.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-brexit-cancel-france-leave-eu-remain-juncker-europe-a8464341.html
Of course should we do tha they promise not to mention it in the years to come ......
As you say what a complete and utter shambles
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I think it's close to impossible to leave without a border on the island of Ireland. Were it practically any other country in the EU then it would be a lot simpler.
I might clear some space in the cellar and garage to stockpile the fuel, food, water, etc. ;-)
So if you're out of the country before 29th March 2019 and there really were no flights back to the UK.... would your employer accept that and let you get back when you can?? Tempting.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 26 Jul 18 at 22:09
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>>supplies...
Done that already.
Key medicines stocked up, tinned supplies for a couple of months and a generator that runs on heating oil.
Shotguns locked in the cabinet if it all goes tits up :-)
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Apparently there was leave propaganda targetted at specific groups on Facebook
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44966969
It's now no surprise how the vote turned out, when you read about poor cuddly polar bears being threatened by the EU, along with "our cuppa".
On a serious note, it's scary how subversive it all was. I wonder how many were taken in by it?
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>> On a serious note, it's scary how subversive it all was. I wonder how many were taken in by it?
None on here I hope! But who'd admit to being so gullible and stupid in society.
Let's hope Facebook's blip today is their downturn. It is a platform that has deceived the people using it for a long time. The general IT illiterate population trusted them - unfortunately.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 27 Jul 18 at 00:14
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Pat and Movilogo, and perhaps Roger, I'm not quite sure.
You keep talking about this nirvana where you can debate Brexit in a peaceful and gentle place.
Well, fair enough, I think that's cool. I wish I had such a place. Since you are fortunate enough to have such a place, perhaps you can share with us the benefit of such peaceful and open debate.
In fact, perhaps you can help me with this....
I accept that we have voted to leave the EU. No argument whatsoever, but I have two questions;
1) what do we expect to gain from this process?
2) How do you recommend we deal with the transition and over what timescale?
I don't need you to justify, explain or even provide evidence, just tell me the points.
Can you?
[if you all you can do is whine with excuses, then just say "no" and I promise we will understand what you mean.]
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1) Freedom
2) By having our knackers and giblets removed over an afternoon
See also the end of Braveheart.
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I've never been one to hoard food but do have a tins/jar pantry in the cellar. But what do the older ones on here think about stocking up prior to March 2019? Anyone planning on this? Not had to do this before in my lifetime. Replenish the 'pantry' as needed.
Essential meds might be a big problem for some - thinking of older ones on here like Roger and Pat.
Thinking mostly tins, pasta, rice, jars and get other things local.
Might have to change diet in the months after Match 2019 I think for a bit at least.
Hauliers might have some over capacity in April 2019 if we are stupid enough to not accept a customs union in a few weeks????!?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 27 Jul 18 at 01:34
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Read this Brexit mag Rob - tinyurl.com/yaosj4cz
Anyhoos, after going here - tinyurl.com/y9nf9brl - I will be stocking up on tinyurl.com/ya4vkopy supplied by our political overlords.
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I think there needs to be a Soylent Red as well. I am happy with BLUE as that's my favourite colour flavour.
I assume you're not doing an 8am clinic tomorrow at your surgery :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 27 Jul 18 at 01:46
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Solyent Green.... in my defence on this topic I was 2 when this film was released. :-)
www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2020082969?playlistId=tt0070723&ref_=tt_ov_vi
Sort of frightening the film set this in 2022.. Made in 1972 but 2022 is not far off. Spooky or what? I did watch this film in the early 80s.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 27 Jul 18 at 01:59
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>> assume you're not doing an 8am clinic tomorrow at your surgery :-)
Nah.
8.30 - off to bed now!
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Reading just now that the UK does not have the facilities to produce insulin. That's a bit of a surprise to me with over 3.5 million people injecting insulin every day (including Theresa May). The quote from Sir Michael Rawlings is a bit odd because he says diabetic suffers would be 'seriously disadvantaged'.... that's playing the seriousness of a shortage of insulin down a bit isn't it?
Anyone else surprised we rely on imports for insulin (which of course needs to be temperature controlled). It seems only 3 pharmaceutical companies produce over 90% of insulin. But not being in the EEA could create a real problem for some of us. The government seems intent on getting us of the EEA.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 28 Jul 18 at 17:11
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What utter crap. That's the sort of reactionary s***e which devalues the proper and real problems we are imminently going to face. There's loads of trouble coming, but importing something we already import from non-EU sources is not one of them.
Even if the EU and the UK got massive sulks on with each other that would only stop EU shipments, which is NOT our major source of insulin.
Novo Nordisk for example, who are one of the world's largest and main producers, produce it in US, Brazil, Denmark, France, China, Russia, Algeria and Japan.
You and Rawlings should both read this.
haiweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/ACCISS_Insulin-Market-Profile_FINAL.pdf
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 28 Jul 18 at 17:26
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p.s. The world's largest insulin production facility is in Denmark which exports to many, many non-EU, non-EEA countries. Like us next year.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 28 Jul 18 at 17:31
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"Reading just now that the UK does not have the facilities to produce insulin........"
Project fear is alive and well?......
or fake news?........
Where did you read it? The Daily Mail?
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I think it was in The Sun, actually. [sigh]
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Mrs C, who uses insulin daily, read it in the Telegraph yesterday too.
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Not just the Russians interfering and trying to destabilise the EU. Trump's sidekick Steve Bannon is having a go too:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/farage-bannon-populists-eu-election
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45012347
I think there's quite a bit of this going on. Numbers in this case are small and they say they will be found other jobs but we are also losing some status.
Maybe it'll all be worth it in the long run.
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The One Show tonight was interviewing folks, in the Midlands, I think.
The general consensus was to get on with it and no second referendum.
Personally, I am stocking up on essential medicines and tinned foods. Shame I can't do the same with petrol but I will ensure the oil tank is full. (Are there any generators that work on heating oil?)
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I also think we should just get on with it as I don't think there is really any way back. We should be (and probably are already) way too far down the line to reverse it.
I am sure it will work, after a fashion. I'm also sure Leave voters will claim how much better everything is even if it isn't.
I don't think anyone is to blame for how well or otherwise it works except those who voted for it, though they're unlikely to see it that way.
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>> I also think we should just get on with it as I don't think there
>> is really any way back. We should be (and probably are already) way too far
>> down the line to reverse it.
I'd agree with that, albeit on basis of second best, if only I could understand what the 'it' we're supposed to be getting on with is!!
Brexit means Brexit but what does Brexit mean?
Right now, 8 months from Brexit date and counting, we don't have the foggiest what the transition looks like.
Never mind the final deal.
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>>Right now, 8 months from Brexit date and counting, we don't have the foggiest what the transition looks like.
Expect an announcement with about a month to go, with both sides claiming moral victory and claiming how great it going to be for everyone, everywhere.
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>> I don't think anyone is to blame for how well or otherwise it works except
>> those who voted for it, though they're unlikely to see it that way.
My boss has been listening to what staff have been saying about Brexit (for or against) and has said in private that should he need to make redundancies due to loss of trade cause by Brexit then the leave voters will be the first to go.
Consequences and all that!
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As usual, a group of us are renting a villa long term in Spain, currently aiming to return mid April when the UK weather improves. It will be interesting to see what happens in March.
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>>has said in private that should he need to make redundancies due to loss of trade cause by
>>Brexit then the leave voters will be the first to go.
Then he will find himself up against an employment tribunal. There are ways to make redundancies, and political belief is not one of the acceptable ways!
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>> Then he will find himself up against an employment tribunal. There are ways to make
>> redundancies, and political belief is not one of the acceptable ways!
Like he is actually going to tell them that when they are given their cards!
It's be down to shrinking workload, job enlargement and insufficient skills etc.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 1 Aug 18 at 01:56
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My boss has been listening to what staff have been saying about Brexit (for or
>> against) and has said in private that should he need to make redundancies due to
>> loss of trade cause by Brexit then the leave voters will be the first to
go.
Must be a very open place to work, in terms of political chat. I honestly can't think of any time politics came up at work ever.
Even brexit the most you might hear is, 'i wish they'd get on with it ' or when it comes on the tv 'I'm sick of hearing about this' maybe once a month or every two months. Even then I've only that, no follow up or challenge.
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>> Must be a very open place to work, in terms of political chat. I honestly
>> can't think of any time politics came up at work ever.
How odd.
I don't know what you do for a living although I sort of surmise some connection to aviation and the military. Is there some cultural thing about neutrality or like avoiding politics and religion at a dinner party?
Anywhere I've worked across a dozen or so postings over 35yrs in the Civil Service and now for a charity there's almost always been political/current affairs chat. Exception was my first post in a rural County Court but I was young, reticent and in my probation then so probably bit my lip over Daily Mailesque views in the staff room.
Most later conversations were amiable. I particularly recall though at about 21 a stand up row with a bloke my Dad's age going on about immigrants with colour TV they somehow got at the taxpayer's expense.
Latterly it tended to be focused more on policy and how it'd affect our jobs. Interesting in the Quango where the Chair was a retired Tory Cabinet Minister and politics came up informally; the view of somebody who'd been 'inside' and how he thought stuff would play out was fascinating.
In a charity concerned with welfare rights etc there's inevitably a list to the left though some people manage to hold what I'd regard as almost contradictory views. We have one arch Brexiteer too......
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 31 Jul 18 at 21:47
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I think that many, including me, avoid the topic because they are sick to the back-teeth of hearing the constant bremainial whining.
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>> sick to the back-teeth of hearing the constant bremainial whining.
Does that include those that accept we have to leave but see no plan of a way forward and wondering how we will move forward? If so do include me although I don't need to discuss at work.
So Haywain what is your preferred solution for the border problem between ROI and NI? I'd love to know what you'd accept.
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>> I think that many, including me, avoid the topic because they are sick to the
>> back-teeth of hearing the constant bremainial whining.
Oh, I thought it was because you had no better idea than the rest of us how to sort this mess out.
We're leaving, that seems clear and I don't think I've seen that argument come up for some time.
What is often discussed is how we leave without getting ourselves in a mess. Do you have any suggestions?
An easy one to start with, simply a choice between three alternatives;
Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg have all stated that no ECJ jurisdiction will be acceptable even for a transition period.
May has said that ECJ jurisdiction is a red line that cannot be crossed. (although back in February she also said that it might be necessary for the transition period for a few years).
Do you believe that we should accept ECJ jurisdiction;
1) for the foreseeable future
2) just for the transition period or
3) not at all?
[I am making the assumption that you understand what the ECJ is and what it does].
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I seriously think the leavers on here won't reply because they have no idea or opinion.
If we leave with no deal and therefore a bad outcome the vote leave list will be looked at by some I am sure.
Can someone on here that voted leave though say they are happy to leave the EU with no deal at all? If there is no response I will assume you are not happy that there is no deal at all.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 31 Jul 18 at 23:43
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Assume what you like rtj, but it doesn't make it so.
Brexiteers on here stopped discussing it long ago and if you want know why just look at this.
>>[I am making the assumption that you understand what the ECJ is and what it does].<<
Pat
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Right, so that's one who can't answer. Anybody else prepared to have a go?
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>> Right, so that's one who can't answer. Anybody else prepared to have a go?
>>
Sorry, what was the question?
We are in this mess partly because of almost unbelievably inept handling and lack of leadership by Theresa May, partly because of deliberately obstructive tactics of leavers, and partly by the EU's paying lip-service to the concept of negotiation despite having apointed a so-called "negotiator".
Mostly I blame the government.
So to ask, "Am I happy with this situation?" is a kind of non-question.
It's like asking the same during the early disasters of the war, after all our inept handling of international affairs in the period since 1919 had contributed to it, or during the Falklands campaign that was arguably brought about by our misleading signals to the Argentinians in prior years.
Voters aren't responsible for government incompetence, nor for suggesting ways of getting out of the mess they produce. Sometimes things reach a position where there is no satisfactory outcome left, and it becomes pointless going on arguing about it.
Best just shut up and get on with clearing up the rubble as best we can.
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>> partly by the EU's paying lip-service to the concept of negotiation
We're asking for things the EU were always not going to agree to. Now we're trying to threaten them. That's not negotiation.
I agree the biggest issue is how the Government has handled this.... the danger is we now crash out without a deal. There will be more than rubble to clean up if that happens.
Again one of the big issues is ROI/NI - so what's the solution? What did leave voters think was the answer when they voted? Or did you not think about that?
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> How odd.
>>
>> I don't know what you do for a living although I sort of surmise some
>> connection to aviation and the military. Is there some cultural thing about neutrality or like
>> avoiding politics and religion at a dinner party?
Maybe it is odd, I don't know. Perhaps I downplayed what political chat there is, very little might be a better description. I mean stuff like 'petrol prices/council tax are up again.' ' yeah getting expensive' but that's not really political chat. Its very short conversational stuff, not even 1% of what goes on in here.
Would you say your jobs have reflected here (excluding the personal stuff) in terms of amount, frequency, people airing their political views in public?
"Â I particularly recall though at about 21 a stand up row with a bloke my Dad's age going on about immigrants with colour TV they somehow got at the taxpayer's expense. "
Certainly nothing like that. I honestly couldn't imagine two people at work having a stand up argument about politics.
Current affairs, yeah chat about that wildfires, kids gone missing etc quite freely.
But for example of the 10 or so people I work directly with, I could perhaps have a (very rough) guess at which way a couple of them voted in the referendum. The other eight I wouldn't honestly have the foggiest.
Maybe it is an unspoken cultural thing or perhaps no one is interested.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 31 Jul 18 at 22:12
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>>
>> Maybe it is odd, I don't know. Perhaps I downplayed what political chat there is,
>> very little might be a better description. I mean stuff like 'petrol prices/council tax are
>> up again.' ' yeah getting expensive' but that's not really political chat. Its very short
>> conversational stuff, not even 1% of what goes on in here.
>>
That's been my experience over 40 years. In the GLC we never talked about politics, and it would have been hard to guess anyone's views.
In the City briefly I suppose it was so sort of taken as red that blue was right (pun) that there was nothing worth talking about.
More recently in a charitable/private company there was I think little or no politics talked, but perhaps as a director I was removed from that, and had no wish to show bias anyway.
So not in the least odd to me - just what I would assume. Especially so now, as people seem to get so embittered by the recent fracas.
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...someone has coined the term "Britsplaining" for the ministers' mission abroad "selling" Brexit.
Likely to go down as well as Mansplaining, apparently. :-(
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Brexit Discussion - Volume 52. - sherlock47
