With regard to ICE vehicles, are modern electronics and hybrid systems leading to less reliable vehicles ?
I hear stories from friends with new vehicles refusing to start , warning lights and all manner of things, most prevalent being flat batteries, and not just because of the recent cold snap.
A neighbour with a new Lexus LBX has had all manner of problems, probably very rare given the Toyota/Lexus reputation for reliability, but nonetheless he’s not impressed.
trying to find something new which will prove to give many years of trouble free motoring seems to be increasingly rare....gone are the days of older Honda & Toyota models giving low maintenance 200k mile reliable cheap motoring.
|
Not my experience in 30 years of buying Japanese cars.
Last 18 years
Nissan Xtrail diesel manual - 2007-2012 Zero repairs, just servicing (Knee issue move to auto)
Honda CRV auto 2012-2023 - Front Spring & anti-roll bar - other than that servicing + consumables - pads, exhaust, battery etc etc
Honda CRV auto 2023- present Zero repairs
Prior to 2007 I had a Honda coupe, Honda estate, Mazda Xedos which were sold at around 100K with no "real repairs" just wear & tear items.
1x Warranty Claim for "door open" warning light on Estate dashboard when the door was shut.
Never stranded at the roadside with any of the above cars
|
|
10 year warranty on suzukis provided there serviced within the dealer network, on my third, never had a moments trouble.
|
Reliability has come on in leaps and bounds in the forty odd years I've owned cars.
You turn the key and it starts. No messing with manual chokes or fighting automated versions. No trouble with HT leads/distributors in cold and wet weather.
Electronics work seamlessly in non Jap cars too; even French ones!!
Neighbours have had battery problems with Toyota and Lexis hybrids. Not the traction battery but the plain vanilla (ish) one that starts the engine.
If the electronics do go wrong getting a competent diagnosis and repair can be an uphill battle though. The Superb has one associated with engine controls that does no more than put on an orange warning light and disable cruise and stop/start but it clears itself as soon as engine is off/on again. Seems to record no fault code and could not be solved although it's not actually occurred for several months now.
|
Conversely I have been stranded at the side of the road 7 times since I passed my test 38 years ago. Two were as a result of accidents, one because I ran out fuel and one as a result of a puncture, but three times have been for actual mechanical issues. Of those, two were in Japanese cars - a Nissan and a Toyota / Lexus - and one a Mercedes.
The Nissan was a hire car provided by my employer, via Europcar. Late ‘90s - it was an Almera of some type. Its clutch packed up and I was stuck on an uphill ‘T’ junction. Maybe it had been abused by an earlier hirer, but it had less than 3k miles on it… The second time was in a Toyota Altezza (Lexus IS200) in Japan, which was a company car that I had from new. Its gearbox packed up when the car had under 20k miles on it and was less than three years old. I was stuck at a toll booth on the Metropolitan Expressway round Tokyo Bay. The third time was in a 17 year old Mercedes SLK with 176,000 miles on the clock; the timing chain let go on the A34/A303 slip road.
But to address the original question, I think modern cars have far more things that consume power in the background, and that low voltages on the 12v ‘convenience’ battery, or whatever each manufacturer calls it, do cause more issues for cars that aren’t used that much
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 10 Jan 26 at 13:15
|
Possibly more a reflection of LandRover build quality than the underlying technology ;)
Having said that, I have briefly counted the number of new cars I’ve bought or had bought for me since I passed my test. The list comprises 1 Fiat, 1 Toyota, 1 VW, 2 Citroens, 2 MINIs, 3 Renaults, 5 Audis, 5 Mercedes and 7 BMWs. Excluding the Toyota, mentioned in my earlier post, none have left me stranded anywhere because of a fault, and almost all have required nothing but regular service and replacement of consumables. The most recent, a BMW i5, has required the least maintenance per mile as it didn’t even need to go to the dealer until it was 2 years old, regardless of mileage. It’d actually done 36,000 miles by then, and all they did was change the cabin filter and brake fluid as far as I can tell. My first new car, a Fiat, needed a service after 6 months I think!
Reliability wise, in terms of needing anything actually fixing there’s been very little. The first MINI had a couple of recalls, one of the Meganes needed a coil pack, one of the Mercs needed a replacement xenon headlight bulb, one of the BMWs had a faulty steering angle sensor (a 535d with no traction or stability control was entertaining…) and one of the Audis needed a replacement mechatronics unit for the DSG ‘box, as well as a GPS antenna (both under warranty).
But over 34 years or more that doesn’t seem too bad, and the most recent was more than 10 years ago, so in my experience cars aren’t getting less reliable. No issues with suspension, steering or brakes, and no annoying electrical issues. Not even any issues with entertainment or HVAC systems. The most serious was probably the mechatronics unit- the car was driveable but the gear changes were jerky. That car had done, I think, 40odd thousand miles at the time, but seems to still be going strong at 12 years old looking at the DVLA MOT checker!
Of course in parallel for many of the years we also had some old bangers, sorry, modern classics, as well. By which I mean ‘80s/‘90s Audis and BMWs. Even then, bar the odd thermostat, battery track rod end, springs and shocks nothing you’d call irritatingly unreliable - really just more age related consumables. Having said that, there’s currently a 17 year old SLK on the drive with a completely flat battery (not been used for 8 weeks) that’ll hopefully jump start alright. Or at least would if the jump leads weren’t in its boot, which needs power to open…
|
The last car that Broke down.. 2000.
Rover 45 overflow pipe to header tank came off.
Put it back on with a clip
Apart from that can't remember anything unreliable.
|
In 54 years of motoring*, the only cars that left me stranded was an Austin Maestro** in 1983. Broke down in the middle of putney high street at rush hour, (electric servoed carb issue ((what a horrid idea that was)) and had the fun of listening to my plight on Capital Radio traffic report, and around 1993 a vauxhall cavalier snapped its distributer shaft and stopped on the A3 at tibbets corner. The Pug 405 blocked its diesel tank vent, so stopped from time to time, but easily fixed by undoing the filler cap. A ford capri broke its clutch cable, drove home in crash box mode.
The encumbent beemer broke a wire to the suspension air pump, has needed new Vanos solenoids, and at 8 years old and 117k miles has held up well.
*probably getting on for a million miles.
** The leasing company gave up on it at 70k miles as economically unviable. So a 1980s BL product is by far the most unreliable vehicle in the history of motoring.
|
Zeddo admitting to having a maestro! What's the world coming to?
I admit to buying an n/a diesel maestro in a moment of pecuniary disadvantage.
|
>> Zeddo admitting to having a maestro! What's the world coming to?
TBF, on paper it was a good car. Nice ride, handled well, very roomy inside for its footprint, looked attractive at the time in HLS guise, nice 5 speed box (VW), lots of toys for the time, , the 1.6 engine (R series) was torquey and willing, but was a mechanical and electrical nightmare
|
>> In 54 years of motoring*, the only cars that left me stranded was an Austin
>> Maestro** in 1983.
I thought you had fun and games with a Touran?
|
>> >> In 54 years of motoring*, the only cars that left me stranded was an
>> Austin
>> >> Maestro** in 1983.
>>
>> I thought you had fun and games with a Touran?
Oh yes, good call, forgot about the Touran. the brake light switch failed on when temps dropped below about 6c and would flatten the battery overnight. That was a car that had VWs first attempt at canbus body module controls, did quite a few strange things.
|
>> >> In 54 years of motoring*, the only cars that left me stranded was an
>> Austin
The bus was quite reliable.
What make was that?
|
>> The bus was quite reliable.
The brakes were rubbish
|
|
Strange that Honda hybrids suffer from battery problems when all Japanese cars are so reliable.
|
|
It is very rare, even these days of the most crowded roads ever known, to see a broken down car by the side of the road. In over 100 yrs and hundreds of thousands of miles of our (self + MrsL) driving, I can count on the fingers of half a hand the number of times we have been rescued, one of which was my own fault in replacing a leaky rusted section of (unknown to me) a high pressure fuel line with a bit of old rubber tubing.
|
Most call outs to the RAC or AA are related to flat batteries, punctures and being locked out.
These generally have little to do with basic vehicle failures, more likely bad luck, lack of maintenance, or stupidity (senior moment).
In the last 40 years and ~600k I have had only one fault that left the car in limp home mode - easily resolved coil pack issue.
Compared to the 1960/70s modern cars are marvels of reliable tech - have just driven 1500 miles without any concerns about overheating, oil consumption, pre-trip service, etc etc.
That modern cars are full of gizmos makes failure of non-critical items more likely and sometimes more difficult to trace and repair.
But the typical 1970s vehicle made the top of the range with the complexity of electric front windows - aircon, media systems, auto lights/wipers, tyre pressure monitoring, brake assist etc, etc, etc had yet to make an appearance.
|
|
In response to the original post, what I find most disturbing, is cars are suffering major failures not long after the warranty has expired. These can be very expensive repairs and often a large percentage of the car’s value.
|
In over 50 years of motoring, I cannot ever recall being left stranded on the roadside.
within the past 18 months, several friends have been unable to start their hybrids due to flat batteries….their cars not being used on a daily basis. Always keeping my cars in the garage, I’m quite confident leaving them for 3 or 4 weeks , confident they will start on my return. But they’ve not been hybrids so maybe a connection there ?
|
There is one car(?) that stands out as mad to buy outside warranty. Modern Range/Land Rover.
Anyone who buys one to keep outside the warranty makes a box of frogs look relatively normal.
I was seriously looking at chucking in the beemer for a gorgeous looking new Jaguar XF-Sport Brake. The ingenium engine made that move financially suicidal.
|
A friend of mine chopped in his 2005 BMW X5 3.0d with 235k on the clock. It had been incredibly reliable over many years, he lived out in the sticks, needed decent wading height for an access road which flooded regularly.
Bought a new LR Disco Sport from my local dealer. He called round and took me for a spin in his new pride & joy. within 15 miles the screen went blank. Straight back to dealer....which was only the start of his problems which were far too numerous to list here.
His wife had two successive Sportage which were the polar opposite reliability wise.
|
|
As I type there’s an RAC van trying to start my neighbours Defender…one of the modern ones. It’s the second time recovery have been there…this year!
|
>> With regard to ICE vehicles, are modern electronics and hybrid systems leading to less reliable vehicles ? I hear stories from friends with new vehicles refusing to start , warning lights and all manner of things, most prevalent being flat batteries, and not just because of the recent cold snap. >>
I think the simple answer is that all parts of ICE vehicles were developed and improved by the end of last century, and their design lives were pretty well settled. It is impossible to introduce anything radically new knowing it to be 'safe' for 10 years, beta-testing by buyers of new models has to find the weak points.
'Unreliability' means things failing long before they should. It doesn't include parts whose replacement has been deliberately postponed beyond a recommended schedule, nor accidental things like punctures (clearly) or abuse by a driver. As cars are increasingly computerised (more for fun than need IMHO) many current models are still in the beta-test phase for some new gizmo or other. Failures are not that surprising really.
Our younger car left the production line at the start of 2008 and I bought it 11 months later with 13K on the clock. A hydraulic clutch cylinder misbehaved last winter, making gear-changing tricky, but I got home by pumping the pedal, so I wasn't stranded. Otherwise, no unscheduled work needed in 17 years of ownership, now at 97K. The older car (205) is twice its age. I have only had it 3 years but I know all its history. At 81K the engine runs well, uses no oil and manages over 50mpg. I have spent time and money on it, but not due to unreliability !
Last edited by: Andrew-T on Sun 11 Jan 26 at 12:46
|
None of the three Skodas we've had since 2015 have let us down at the roadside although the Superb's cooling problem in the summer was a near miss.
Previous cars had their moments...
Berlingo #1 had three flatback rides though it got past 100k miles before any of them. Two for clutches, first was a known issue with a part made of brie. Second I suspect was due to improper installation - release bearing issue - but not provable after a further 50k miles.
The third was a lead that separated from the alternator, should probably have been repairable at the roadside but the agent who attended was frightened of breaking the stud off so relayed home from Sheffield.
Berlingo #2 failed a fuel injector at all but ten years and well over 120k miles.
|
I know we've talked about this on here before, but it does amaze me how many people still buy, sorry lease, Land Rovers when their reliability record is so poor.
The last car that let me down was a BX GTI back in 1991, when it's clutch cable broke. Fortunately about half a mile from the indie garage I used to have it serviced, so I managed to drive it there in London traffic with no clutch, just carefully timed gear-changes.
Although it didn't break down on the road, the worst car I have had was a VW Transporter Shuttle twin-turbo diesel. Some mornings nothing happened when you turned the key. Try again and it might work, or it might need another turn. VW garage could find no fault. Then the oil light came on... Turns out it was suffering from worn bores as the EGR Valve was breaking up and bits of aluminium were getting back into the bores. An oil sample confirmed metal contamination off the scale. Common problem on this engine but VW didn't want to know (just out of warranty but only 60,000 miles on the clock). So I sold it to a trade buyer... Amazingly it's still on the road. I wonder how many engine rebuilds it has had in the meantime??
|
|
So, this evening I had a dinner date, was late because in the middle of the most inconvenient part of Cobham was a broken down....... Brand new Land Rover.
|
|
Are you sure it wasn't just poorly parked to enable the housewife to pop into Waitrose? Although no-one should be surprised if it was a genuine break-down of course.
|
Increasing unreliability - Falkirk Bairn
