***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 7 *****
==========================================================
Continuing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 17:31
|
...rather disrespectful to be singing nursery rhymes on Armistice Day, dontcha think. ;-)
tinyurl.com/jezzersings (Independent)
And it says that (like the National Anthem), he didn't appear to know the words!
I can just visualise it.........
"Right then children, all together....."Incy Wincy Trident's going down the water spout....""
;-)
|
>> I was only having a gentle poke at the erroneous homophonia, WP.
Received.
It actually irritates me when I see it... and at school English Language was one of my strong points.
|
Is David Cameron the Most Stupidest Person in Britain??
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFR8IBdXdJE&app=desktop
|
>> Is David Cameron the Most Stupidest
One for the tautology thread. :-)
|
George Monbiot on same subject:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/11/david-cameron-letter-cuts-oxfordshire
The council's response is a rather good demolition job.
|
>>The council's response is a rather good demolition job.
Make that 542nd.
|
>> Make that 542nd.
No fan of Monbiot and generally chose not to read his articles in the days when I bought the whole paper. Picked up on this one because it caught my eye online after I'd heard the story on the radio this morning.
My 'like' is for the letter to Cameron from the leader of Oxfordshire County Council, Conservative Councillor to Conservative PM/MP, forensically discrediting the assertions made by Cameron.
|
>>Is David Cameron the Most Stupidest Person in Britain??
Well, there were 537 likes to that youtube video, the bloke who made it and George Monbiot. So depending on whether or not you think it was a good video and article then Cameron is at least 540th and perhaps 541st.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 12 Nov 15 at 11:33
|
It's just occured to me that Corbyn only seems ever to have one expression, as judged by his photographs.
Even Lenin lightened up sometimes and was said to have a sense of humour.
|
>> It's just occured to me that Corbyn only seems ever to have one expression, as
>> judged by his photographs.
>> Even Lenin lightened up sometimes and was said to have a sense of humour.
>>
...well, not redolent of Lenin, but maybe someone else.........
tinyurl.com/siegcorbyn (Telegraph)
;-)
|
>> It's just occured to me that Corbyn only seems ever to have one expression, as
>> judged by his photographs.
>> Even Lenin lightened up sometimes and was said to have a sense of humour.
>
Why do left wingers have to end in the "in" sound?
Lenin, Stalin, Corbyn, Marx.
oh
|
Jeremy Corbyn wanted Jihad John arrested!
Well, in an ideal world that would be perfect, but it is not an ideal world and how many police officers or soldiers would have died going out to Syria or Iraq to arrest him.
The guy just doesn't know when to keep shut.
|
|
With what offence in UK law would have been tried under, given that his beheading activities took place in a foreign country?
|
As I understand it, there are two basic offences one can commit as an English citizen on foreign soil and prior to the 1980s, there weren't any at all. The first one, operating a radio transmitter without a licence was joined more recently by underage sex.
The 1967 Marine Offences act did not do this, it merely made it an offence in territorial waters, so Radio Caroline and Radio Nordsea International moved a bit further away. A subsequent law made the matter clearer, but it was as said in the House of Lords, like smashing a butterfly on the wheel; a huge amount effort for little gain.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Fri 13 Nov 15 at 20:32
|
>>Jeremy Corbyn wanted Jihad John arrested!
And Corbyn is correct.
The difference between the UK/US executing someone who they believe threatens their way of life and ISIS executing someone who they believe threatens their way of life is what?
Of course I despised the evil little s*** and am glad he's dead, but that's hardly the point, is it? We're supposed to be "better" than them.
They executed something they didn't like, and then we did the same. Whoop, whoop, serious moral high ground there.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 03:46
|
The difference might depend on what status you accord to the ISIS organisation.
If it is just a criminal organisation, a bit like the mafia, then it is clearly wrong simply to murder its operatives out of hand.
But if it behaves as a quasi state, occuping territory, claiming allegiance from its "citizens", having a leader, a sort of government, enforcing its laws, maintaining an army, then we are surely entitled to view it as a state, and if hostile to our interests and to a wider humanity, we are entitled to engage in war with it.
At that point surely the rules change. We supported the operation to assasinate Heydrich for example in WW2. Would Corbyn have said we should have sent a copper to arrest him?
|
>> >>Jeremy Corbyn wanted Jihad John arrested!
>>
>> And Corbyn is correct.
That of course would have been the preferred and correct option, however that is a course of action that is simply not achievable.
Corbyn should be living in the real world and know that and kept his trap shut. Its another nail in his electoral coffin.
|
|
I really doubt he will be leader for long.
|
In the real world, ISIS kill 128 people in Paris..
No doubt Mr Corbyn is going to comment and tell us the perpetrators should have been arrested..
|
I must defend Corbyn here as what he actually says is often reported wildly out of context, as is the case with anyone whom the press decides is Victim of The Day until they get fed up and go for someone else. Saying "It would be better if he had been arrested" is a view shared by many of both wings of the political spectrum (Not me though) and is entirely different to saying that what was done was wrong.
I wouldn't vote for him but I'm beginning to feel a lot of empathy towards him, I really dislike these tabloid hate campaigns.
|
>> I wouldn't vote for him but I'm beginning to feel a lot of empathy towards
>> him, I really dislike these tabloid hate campaigns.
>>
I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't care for the man, for his beliefs or his party at all, but some don't seem to realise that to constantly pillory him and pick fault with piddling inconsequential things like the depth of his bow on Remembrance Sunday (which may have been of interest to etiquette fanatics in Tokyo but not here) is simply playing into the hands of his apologists and may even help his cause.
|
|
Corbyn wanting arrests would mean millions in legal costs for the taxpayer and years of procrastination. Same as a wounded soldier uses four times the resourses of a dead one. A cold fact of war.
|
>> Corbyn wanting arrests would mean millions in legal costs
Yes this justice stuff is an enormous waste of money. Arbitrary executions are so much cheaper and could be extended to anyone deemed a threat to the state. Just pull them off the streets and "disappear" them.
|
|
I have no problem wit arresting them, just don't give my money to a bunch of lawyers to defend them.
|
|
Is not a right to a legal defence the mark of a civilised country?
|
>> I have no problem wit arresting them, just don't give my money to a bunch
>> of lawyers to defend them.
>>
So if you were arrested and charged you don't think you should be entitled to a defence barrister?
|
>> So if you were arrested and charged you don't think you should be entitled to
>> a defence barrister?
>>
I don't deliberately go to kill people If they can afford guns, ammunition, and explosives, the travel and support systems and other expenses of running a terrorist organisation they can afford to buy their own defence lawyers. Do gooders don't last long in wars, they don't seem to get the fact that the opposition do not play by our rules.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 13:44
|
Presumably you believe that everyone who has been arrested for terrorist offence is automatically guilty, that security and police forces never make mistakes and that the innocent never get mistaken for criminals.
I think that to say the least you are a little naive.
|
|
We will see who is naive as the terrorist attacks increase in Europe. I was talking with our community policeman yesterday, I don't think he has any intention of kicking my front door in and locking me up anymore than the traffic policeman who lives two doors away.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 14:20
|
The best response we can give to stuff like this is
"Bring it on sunshine, we can cope we aint gonna be affected by you, and nothing you can do will bring us down to your level, in the end we will win because you are just plain wrong"
120 killed in Paris? OK thats bad, New York lost 5000+ and still climbing, is the place on its knees? nope.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 14:35
|
>> We will see who is naive as the terrorist attacks increase in Europe. I was
>> talking with our community policeman yesterday, I don't think he has any intention of kicking
>> my front door in and locking me up anymore than the traffic policeman who lives
>> two doors away.
>>
You do talk twaddle. What on earth has the the fact that you are friendly with your local neighbourhood police got to do wth the fact that the justice system sometimes makes mistakes or, difficult as I know you find it to believe acts improperly , and innocent people end up getting charged with serious offences.
In your eyes anyone charged is automatically guilty and not worthy of a defence. The very attitude of the fundamentalist regimes that we rightly condemn.
|
|
If lawyers are so good why do we have wrongful convictions? Your perfect world is a fantasy.
|
>> If lawyers are so good why do we have wrongful convictions? Your perfect world is
>> a fantasy.
Have you ever studied the background to any wrongful convictions?
No lawyer on earth will save you from wrongful conviction if the state has concealed the doubt in the evidence.
Try the Brimingham 6 as a starter.
You're floundering ON.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 14 Nov 15 at 15:01
|
>> Try the Brimingham 6 as a starter.
Or Stefan Kiszko if you want to steer clear of terror related cases.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed
|
>> If lawyers are so good why do we have wrongful convictions? Your perfect world is
>> a fantasy.
>>
That must be the the silliest statement I have read for a long while. You believe that we should abandon the legal system because it sometimes makes mistakes.
On the other hand you believe the security and police forces never make mistakes.
Can you see any flaw in that argument?
|
>> Can you see any flaw in that argument?
>>
Yes, there are flaws in all points of view. If you are taking on the bad guys there will always be collateral damage, no matter what the conflict, sport, law, guns or bombs. Some of it may even be intentional. Think Dresden. We do not live in a perfect world.
|
O course we do to live in a perfect world. It's just that I believe that arbitrarily arresting people without the right to a fair trial makes the world a worse place.
You believe that somehow making the UK more like Egypt or China would make it better.
Incomprehensible
|
.... and on it goes.
It must be unprecedented that a party leader gets slapped down by more junior people each time he fudges something.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12000003/Jeremy-Corbyn-savaged-by-Labour-MPs-over-shoot-to-kill-opposition.html
|
|
If I were you, WP, I'd leave him alone. He's a gift to the Tories, so leave him be and they can have a clear run through the 2020 election. Then they'll have had 15 years in office, and all those national embarrassments like the NHS, the BBC, equality of opportunity, will be safely consigned to history.
|
>> If I were you, WP, I'd leave him alone. He's a gift to the Tories,
>> so leave him be and they can have a clear run through the 2020 election.
He might well be a gift to the Tories.. but he isn't a gift to Labour...or the country.
Even though I vote Tory and agree with most of their principles, I still want a strong opposition, to keep the party in power, in check.
|
He is entirely unsuited to be the leader of the party, I don't like his politics and I'm afriad I think he is a bit of a pillock.
But he is getting an unjustified bad time of it, if you ask me.
He has never kept his beliefs a secret, and it was their own process and members which elected him.
They might not be happy about it, but currently many of them have a democratically elected leader that they are failing to support and stand behind. Not really the point of an election.
Those that voted for Corbyn ought to be point that out to their own MPs.
|
Mind you, I say I don't like his politics which I *really* don't. But he's said a couple of things about dealing with terrorism and war which make sense.
Sadly he has also said the odd thing which does not.
|
|
I can accept his views, I don't agree with some of them, some of them are perfectly sensible, clearly he is a principled man. However he reacts to the press, and questions in general in an appalling manner. Of course the press commentators and opposition are going to use every opportunity to work at his perceived weaknesses and principles, he really should know that, and should be prepared to answer them in a convincing and reassuring manner - as tho he has a formulated policy or stance, Or even do what the others do, don't answer them, either way he is making a tit of himself.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 17 Nov 15 at 22:30
|
>> However he reacts to the press, and questions in general in an appalling manner.
I think Jeremy Corbyn is a shy cat, and that makes him appear stiff and rigid in public. He's interested and serious, but reserved to the point of looking cold sometimes. Not an ideal characteristic for a professional politician, but fate placed him in that role which he fulfils with generally good humour.
I don't think he's bothered by everyone teasing him about his wardrobe.
|
And how did "fate" do that?
Seems to me he has spent most of his working life seeking to be a professional politician.
|
>> Seems to me he has spent most of his working life seeking to be a professional politician.
Many are called FMR, but few are chosen. By, er, fate you might say carelessly.
|
|
Sorry, I don't understand your point but it doesn't seem to me that when one strives for something that one can then hold fate responsible for inflicting it.
|
>> it doesn't seem to me that when one strives for something that one can then hold fate responsible for inflicting it.
Quite a lot of odd but ambitious people want to be politicians, and some succeed.
It isn't given to many to be chosen as party leader though. That could be called a stroke of fate.
But don't worry about it FMR. We have differences of perspective. Nothing new there.
|
>> And how did "fate" do that?
I've posted this before but I (seriously) think he's an accidental leader. He stood to be the left figurehead who, like his ex lover Ms Abott, failed valiantly. An accident of (a) a new electoral system and (b) three almost indistinguishable lacklustre Blairite stooges meant he got elected.
He's still struggling with the consequences.
Something similar happened to me once. To somebody like yourself with confidence and an unquenchable competitive instinct that might not be a problem. For otherss............
|
>> >> And how did "fate" do that?
>>
>> I've posted this before but I (seriously) think he's an accidental leader.
Sounds like get the excuses in before it goes belly up. I know your a big labour fan but he did and does have free will. When he was the favourite (later on) there was no hint of being forced on him, all those big crowds and the press. Looked like he was lapping it up. He's now found it's not as easy to change things as he thought. That's quite some way from it all just falling from a height on him.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 18 Nov 15 at 20:12
|
>>>>
>> Sounds like get the excuses in before it goes belly up. I know your a
>> big labour fan but he did and does have free will. When he was the
>> favourite (later on) there was no hint of being forced on him, all those big
>> crowds and the press. Looked like he was lapping it up. He's now found it's
>> not as easy to change things as he thought. That's quite some way from it
>> all just falling from a height on him.
>>
I'm no fan of the current Labour party, but I agree with Brompt. He was persuaded to stand for a role he never sought as a token figure from the left and neither he nor his proposers thought he had a cat in hells chance of getting it.
I should think he is now part relishing it because who doesn't enjoy a spell as The Boss, and part wishing he'd never gone near it because he simply isn't experienced enough of a high profile position to know how to avoid constantly putting his foot in it.
In other words, he hasn't learnt how to lie and bluster like a "Proper" politician.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 18 Nov 15 at 21:02
|
He showed some humour at pmqs today I thought. A fairly long question about where money was going to come from prompted some Tory front bench whispering, and Corbyn ended it with "and would he like me to keep talking long enough for the Chancellor to tell him the answer?"
Well, it amused me.
|
>> he simply isn't experienced enough of a high profile position to know how to avoid constantly putting his foot in it.
That's wrong actually. He's an experienced parliamentarian of many years' standing who seldom puts a foot wrong.
A lot of people here are down on him because he's a socialist with pacifist leanings. There are many such, and there always have been.
|
Anyone who has a Shadow Chancellor who is on record calling for the disbandment of MI5 and disarming (April 2015) is NOT "someone who seldom puts a foot wrong"..
(and whose Shadow Chancellor denies it and is then shown with a photo holding it - so he's a lying toerag as well - and an incompetent at that)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 19 Nov 15 at 14:13
|
>> on record calling for the disbandment of MI5 and disarming (April 2015)
Honestly madf, politicians of all colours say things like that all the time. It doesn't mean they will get round to really trying to do it when and if they are elected to office. They will be far too busy with day-to-day stuff and getting re-elected.
I repeat, Corbyn is a mainstream English socialist with pacifist leanings, a well-known type, but JC is more able than the general run.
|
>> Something similar happened to me once.
you got accidentally elected to leadership of the Labour Party?
|
"Corbyn slumps to new YouGov leader ratings low ....Even EdM had net positives at this stage."
tinyurl.com/p9jzfjg
Last edited by: madf on Wed 18 Nov 15 at 11:03
|
You can't really call him a leader, when he is in fact following his MPs every time he does a U-turn.
It is a quite extraordinary state of affairs.
|
"Ken Livingstone has defied Jeremy Corbyn and refused to fully apologise for saying a critical shadow minister with depression “might need some psychiatric helpâ€.
Mr Corbyn called on the former London Mayor, who has been made co-convener of Labour’s defence review, to say sorry “straight away†to Kevan Jones over the comments.
Mr Livingstone had said Mr Jones, a shadow minister who has spoken movingly about his mental health issues, “should see his GP†after criticism of the appointment"
tinyurl.com/nhsk43q
I thought the Tories were the "Nasty Party".
|
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34853430
Ken Livingstone makes 'unreserved' apology for 'psychiatric help' comment..
By Twitter
Mr Livingstone tweeted his apology after refusing to say sorry during interviews.
"I unreservedly apologise to Kevan Jones for my comments. They should not have been made at all, let alone in this context," he said.
"I also make this apology because Jeremy [Corbyn] is right to insist on a more civil politics and as a party we should take this seriously".
|
"I thought the Tories were the "Nasty Party""
....... and I thought they were the 'corrupt' party.
|
|
The current Labour leadership are like a bunch of idealistic fourth formers. They're going to be wiped out in 2020 unless they change rapidly.
|
>> idealistic fourth formers.
You cats need to make up your minds: is Labour run by naive children or a hidden and sinister left-wing conspiracy?
Both tremendous fun in their different ways of course. A bit of both would be best.
Go Jeremy, go!
And by the way: Herself feels that the hostility of many Labour MPs spells probable doom for the leader. They are a seriously reactionary bunch with honourable exceptions.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 19 Nov 15 at 19:13
|
>You cats need to make up your minds:
Oh, definitely fourth formers.
Tom Watson is a dead ringer for Billy Bunter combined with the Greyfriars bully.
|
>> Interesting article, esp the bit where George Galloway gets it right. It comes to it
>> when I find myself agreeing with him!
Galloway, what a two faced slithering slimy git that bloke is. Brave words spoken there about gunning down terrorists, The same galloway that has a regular slot on Al Jazzera praising the very same terrorists and decrying the attitude of the west?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 20 Nov 15 at 19:34
|
Chuka Umunna seems to be upping his game. Wonder why he didn't enter the fray last time? Speculation about his private life I seem to remember.
He seems quite a credible candidate for next time. Perhaps the private life stuff can be sorted and he's positioning himself for a run.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12007050/Chuka-Umunna-Jeremy-Corbyn-Labour-Syria-vote.html
|
|
There are a few that should have put themselves forward. The reason I think they didn't is they'd prefer to be leader at the next election and there's a good chance whoever's leader now won't be in 4 years time.
|
|
Yeah I think that's about it - the smarter ones saw that Miliband's legacy would not be a pleasant thing to sort out and stood back to let someone else take the flak. Only the blindly ambitious or stupid ones were left, and the others will be back once . I don't think of Corbyn as blindly ambitious. :-) My recollection of Chukka is that there were whispers about his private life but these were eventually discounted and it was just accepted that he didn't want to stand at the moment.
|
|
He looks like he could make a good leader - perhaps he's going to be our first black Prime Minister.
|
>> He looks like he could make a good leader - perhaps he's going to be
>> our first black Prime Minister.
>>
That thought crossed my mind... although hopefully it won't be for quite a while.
|
In 2025 he will be 47 years old. Getting old by modern standards - see Blair and Cameron
Britain's Prime Ministers are getting younger. Winston Churchill took over in 1940 at the age of 65, while David Cameron took office in 2010 at the sprightly age of 43.
The trend has become so persistent that critics, like Nigel Farage, now take pot shots at "the current Westminster college kids" in government. So, is politics getting younger? .
tinyurl.com/od4jf6g
|
|
Didn't go to University did he ? Not that that's a problem...but a very clever comment that cannot be responded to without insulting non-graduates.
|
Very good Corbyn photo on pp 6-7 in today's comic. Seems to be from some agency.
It's underhand to print photos that make people look grotesque, but no picture editor could resist the temptation.
|
|
Hilary Benn is making a stand for power: compared to Corbyn he appears electable.
|
|
Old New Labour. Private Eye (being my moral compass) have a view, but I can live with that.
|
|
I quite like H B, talks some sense.
|
>>
>>
>> Britain's Prime Ministers are getting younger.
>>
They'll be down to 24 soon. Oh, hang on, that was William Pitt in 1783.
|
>> Well remembered...
>>
Before my time.I'm not old enough to remember him :-)
|
Labour members think Corbyn is doing very well.
Seriously.
tinyurl.com/qegexor
Last edited by: madf on Tue 24 Nov 15 at 10:16
|
>> Labour members think Corbyn is doing very well.
>>
>>
>> Seriously.
If you want a leader who adopts the policies of the grassroots then he's doing very well indeed. Whether such a leader, even one with the skills and charisma to be leader, can win a UK election is another question.
Had I had a vote I'd have held my nose and voted for Yvette Cooper.
|
|
Members of any political party are only a minute proportion of the electorate and in no way represent the views of the population as a whole.
|
>> Members of any political party are only a minute proportion of the electorate and in
>> no way represent the views of the population as a whole.
Paid up members of the Labour Party, are by their very nature left wing activists. Normal people don't join the labour party.
|
>> Paid up members of the Labour Party, are by their very nature left wing activists.
>> Normal people don't join the labour party.
>>
.........or vote for it :-)
|
All those people who voted Labour in the last election aren't normal.
Is that an official UKIP statement?
|
>> All those people who voted Labour in the last election aren't normal.
>>
>> Is that an official UKIP statement?
>>
As I no longer hold any official post in my local UKIP branch (retired from the secretaryship for a younger, more energetic chap) the answer to your question is "No" !
|
|
I see. Do you really believe that though? That would be about a third of the populaiton
|
>>
>> >> Paid up members of the Labour Party, are by their very nature left wing
>> activists.
>> >> Normal people don't join the labour party.
>> >>
>>
>> .........or vote for it :-)
at the moment correct. And there is the strange anomaly, there is always a cyclic diversion between "the membership" (small number) and the "electorate" (large number)
At the moment the gap is very wide.
|
Labour Leader thread Volume 6. - tyrednemotional
